Talk:Boys' love

Further reading

Removed from the article, but possibly useful to expand the references:

Talk:Boys' love/Reference suggestions

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 03:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Artwork of a seme and uke

• ... that yaoi is a portmanteau of a phrase that translates to "no climax, no point, no meaning," referencing how early works in the genre focused on sex to the exclusion of plot and character development? Source: "Pornography or Therapy? Japanese Girls Creating the Yaoi Phenomenon"
  • ALT1:... that yaoi, a literary genre focused on male-male romance, originated in the 1970s as a subgenre of girls' comics? Source: "Loving the love of boys: Motives for consuming yaoi media"
  • ALT2:... that the two participants in a yaoi relationship (pictured) are referred to as seme ("top") and uke ("bottom"), terms derived from martial arts that were later appropriated as Japanese LGBT slang? Source: "Underage Sex and Romance in Japanese Homoerotic Manga and Anime"
  • ALT3:... that any man can be the subject of a yaoi manga, including characters from literature, video games, and even real people? Source: "Moe: Exploring Virtual Potential in Post-Millennial Japan"
  • ALT4:... that in China, fans of BL – a male-male romance genre also known as yaoi – use the hashtag "socialist brotherhood" to avoid detection from state censors when discussing the genre? Source: SCMP

• Reviewed: Studio 2054
• Comment: Plenty of material to mine for hooks on this one, as one can imagine.

Improved to Good Article status by Morgan695 (talk). Self-nominated at 22:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC).

• passed appropriately as a GA. The third hook has the wrong source, I assume you meant to use "Underage Sex and Romance in Japanese Homoerotic Manga and Anime" instead of "Boy's Love and Yaoi Revisited", which is used to cite something later in the paragraph. All the other hooks are fine. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 20:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Elliot321: Yes, that was an error on my part. I've corrected the source, if you wish to approve ALT2. Morgan695 (talk) 02:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• approved. Honestly, I prefer that one — mainly because the image is cute. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 05:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Informal RfC: Temperature check on "yaoi" vs "BL"

It's been about two-and-a-half years since our last move discussion on the topic of what this article should be named, and per my comments from about a year ago, common usage has continued to steadily drift towards "boys' love/BL" and away from "yaoi" to describe this genre of media. I believe there is a strong case to be made to rename this article, but I'm interested in soliciting opinions from other editors on the subject before doing something as formal as an RfC or a Requested move. If you have opinions about this matter one way or the other, please leave them below. Morgan695 (talk) 22:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Could we do a chart like what was done here, with a chart showing the popularity of usage of terms (i.e. "yaoi", "boys' love", and "bl")? That would be helpful in making my decision (and likely that of others) when it comes to renaming the page. Historyday01 (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

See below; I've struck the ones that picked up too many false positives to be reliable indicators. (There are false positives on Boys love + "drama", but I didn't strike it because there are nevertheless a very large number of scholarly articles written about BL television dramas.) As has been brought up in move discussions before, "boys' love" and "BL" as isolated terms are inevitably going to pick up false positives; the latter because of how generic it is, and the former because of its common use in other phrases (e.g. "the boys love ice cream"). Qualification is necessary to get an idea of how these terms are being used in the specific context of anime/manga/television dramas. Morgan695 (talk) 23:01, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Search term	Google web (English only)	Google Scholar	Google books (English only)
Exact phrase
"Yaoi"	180,000,000	12,400	78,000
"Boys love"	23,200,000	6,600	54,500
"Boys' love"	20,400,000	6,600	69,800
"BL"	525,000,000	5,640,000	39,500,000
Qualified phrase
Yaoi + "manga"	98,200,000	2,530	40,400
Yaoi + "anime"	199,000,000	2,090	3,300
Yaoi + "drama"	31,900,000	1,240	1,880
Boys love + "manga"	154,000,000	21,300	30,100
Boys love + "anime"	242,000,000	23,000	14,800
Boys love + "drama"	158,000,000	944,000	588,000
Boys' love + "manga"	116,000,000	21,300	30,900
Boys' love + "anime"	249,000,000	23,000	14,600
Boys' love + "drama"	151,000,000	926,000	62,000
BL + "manga"	117,000,000	27,000	66,300
BL + "anime"	247,000,000	20,200	36,400
BL + "drama"	55,400,000	105,000	358,000

The number of results for Boys' love drops significantly if you explicitly exclude Yaoi from the search (89,500,000 for manga), which implies the two terms are often used together small jars tc 22:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Strange, my Google result is returning 146M for Boys' love + "manga" and 141M for Boys' love + "manga" -"yaoi". Either way, from anecdotal observation there are are many sources that use the terms together (SuBLime, Viz Media's BL imprint, refers to itself as a "publisher of yaoi/boys’ love manga") which I think does reflect how common usage is drifting.

Relatedly, I sometimes do wonder how much the fact that this article is still called "Yaoi" is responsible for this trend of sources splitting the difference in this way; it is, after all, the first link that comes up in a simple search for both "yaoi" and "boys' love". Morgan695 (talk) 00:52, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As I wrote in the last discussion, Boys' Love is the predominant name for the genre in Japan (with "yaoi" largely referring to aniparo/nijisōsaku (derivative) works—source), and this use has been reflected in the predominant use of "BL" instead of "yaoi" in English scholarship, something that has been happening for the past 5-10 years. In addition to the Mechademia issue I brought up last discussion, recent work from luminary scholars like James Welker continues to use "BL", not "yaoi". In fandom, as well, there's been a shift as people learn more of the correct terminology, and especially with the rise of international BL in other Asian countries (you might describe danmei as "Chinese BL," but not "Chinese yaoi", but the smoking gun here would probably be the rising tide of Thai BL, which is not called "Thai yaoi" by any stretch of the imagination). In any case, yes, this article is overdue for a name change. Sandtalon (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. And I would support a change to "Boys' Love", while keeping "Yaoi" as a redirect. Historyday01 (talk) 19:37, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I participated in the last RfC and I'm all for retitling the article as "Boys' love" or "Boys love." lullabying (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Same here. The beginning of the article can just be changed (with the appropriate Japanese words for each term, as it is in the current version) to say something like "Boys' love, also known as yaoi, boys love, and its abbreviation BL, is a genre of fictional media originating in Japan that features homoerotic relationships between male characters." Historyday01 (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

On the separation of BL (Anime vs Live Action) (Japanese vs Rest of Asia)

I feel BL has grown immensely in the past decade and feel it has begun to deeply separate from its origins in Japanese Manga/Anime. While I think it's important to acknowledge these origins it's clear BL is quickly becoming less anime and less Japanese and I feel a separate article on BL especially focusing on Live Action BL would be useful since this article barely covers it. I would love to hear other's thoughts or even look into a voting poll.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, if there is enough reliable sources to justify a division, then I'd say to go for it. I think a voting poll would be a good idea. @User:Morgan695, considering your contribution above on this talk page, perhaps you would be interested in contributing here.Historyday01 (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I think there's likely enough material to create Boys' love on televison (or something similarly named), though it would be a good idea to start an article in the draftspace first. Naming that article might get thorny, especially if this master article is still listed as "Yaoi"; perhaps now is the time to bite the bullet with a formal move request for this article, since there was no major objection to the informal discussion from several months ago? Morgan695 (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Im so sorry i had no idea. You'd did this first. I wish to formally acknowledge that. But yeah, I think a separate article covering live action would do wonders I suggest the titles "Boy's Love Drama" or "Live Action Boy's Love"-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

For the record though I actually think Yaoi or Shonen Ai should still exist and renaming it to Boy's Love might hamper our ability to create a more intercontinental (Asia) and live action article on BL. Rainbowofpeace (talk) 01:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to separate the two into two articles. BL is used in South Korea, while yaoi is used mostly for just Japanese media, along with Shonen-ai. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 21:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

BL is really used all over Asia especially China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Thailand and the Philippines. However Yaoi or Shonen-Ai usually only refers to anime and manga. I really want a new article that focuses mostly (if not exclusively) on live action and while there will definitely be mention of Japanese live action BL. I think its clear that other countries will be just as if not more prominent including South Korea like you mentioned but also Thailand and Taiwan. I would definitely look forward to your what I'm sure will be incredibly insightful contributions in the new articles section on South Korea.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if live-action BL deserves a page, but I'm for spinning off BL content from this page into its own, and adding info from other countries to it. I will say that live-action BL should definitely be a component of the page, but just not its own. You could go with "Boy's Love in (country)" to expand on each country. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh wow, I didn't even realize this discussion existed until now. I actually went on and created List of boys' love dramas article. Feedback or help to improve the article would be appreciated. — ‎‎‎hhypeboyh 💬 • ✏️ 18:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

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Essentially, it would be this:

• Boy's love
  • Boy's love in (country)

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:13, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I would support splitting the "Live action television and film" section into "Boys' love in [X]" articles that fork from this article, but I don't see the rationale for splitting this article into "Boys' love" and "Yaoi", and would likely oppose such a move. Morgan695 (talk) 16:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Morgan695: It would mean that the "Boy's love" article can focus on BL from other countries, while the "Yaoi" would only be about Japanese BL, along with Shonen-ai. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Why would an article titled "Boys' love" exclude Japan, the country that the the term originates from and which actively uses the term to designate a genre of media? And why would an article titled "Yaoi" focus exclusively on media from Japan, where "yaoi" as a term is largely depreciated? This seems like a wholly arbitrary distinction. Morgan695 (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

It wouldn't exclude it, it would be a subsection that has a link to the "Yaoi" page, along with "Shonen-ai". It would have general info about BL across the world, but also have links to other pages, like the aforementioned pages. The BL page would have an etymology section, describing how it originated. It would be like this:

• Etymology
• In other countries
  • BL in (county)
  • BL in Japan

(use "Main" temp. for Yaoi and Shonen-ai)

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:31, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I still think it can get pretty confusing unless you actually have a draft so you can show what you mean. Even BL published abroad is now being published in Japan under the same label (some even going as far as to change the characters' names and backgrounds so that they're Japanese). lullabying (talk) 09:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. A draft of the page would be nice to see. Historyday01 (talk) 15:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) RodRabelo7 (talk) 11:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

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Yaoi → Boys' love – It's been four years since the last requested move, and judging by the above discussion from last year, it does seem that consensus is now in favour of Boys' love for the overall topic. This is supported by recent scholarship, which predominantly uses boys' love (or some other variation on punctuation), especially in the context of the genre's international reach as opposed to its manga origins.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] While BL is also commonly used in general parlance (and might be more common), it is ambiguous and not recognisable enough without context. There's room for further reorganisation of the content to have Yaoi as a subarticle focusing on the genre's manga origins, as suggested in the above section, but that is a separate matter. Paul_012 (talk) 07:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nominator. "Yaoi" has become largely anachronistic as general usage has shifted towards "BL" and "boys' love". Morgan695 (talk) 18:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Also Support per nom. As said in previous discussion, the BL landscape and the usage of the term have grown immensely not only in Asia but worldwide compared to four years ago. Using the term "Boys' love" now would be more appropriate than "yaoi", which is a term still only closely associated with the homoerotic Japanese animes and mangas. — ‎‎‎hhypeboyh 💬 • ✏️ 18:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. Reiterating my comment from the last rename request, the term "boys' love" has largely eclipsed the term "yaoi" in terms of genre and publishing. lullabying (talk) 06:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Boys' love is a more inclusive and descriptive term for the genre. Waqar💬 14:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as long as the opening is changed from the present opening to:

Boys' love (ボーイズ ラブ, bōizu rabu), also known by its abbreviation BL (ビーエル, bīeru) or yaoi (/ˈjaʊi/ YOW-ee; Japanese: やおい [jaꜜo.i]), is a genre of fictional media originating in Japan that features homoerotic relationships between male characters.

Historyday01 (talk) 16:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move clean-up

I've updated the article opening, but I'm not sure how the wording should be handled throughout article. It would be appropriate to retain references to yaoi, especially in the coverage of the genre's earlier history, but in which instances should the term be changed? Should the article prefer boys' love spelled out or the abbreviation BL? From what I've seen, the abbreviation would seem more natural and in-line with source usage. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

From a cursory glance, the final paragraph of "Etymology and terminology" that explains how the genre is named in Japan vs in the west is probably the section most in need of updating. I think the article should use yaoi when that era of the genre's history is being covered, but should default to "BL" for other uses. Morgan695 (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)