Wikipedia talk:Citing sources

Linking google drive

Here's a fun one for the crew: I'm working on rescuing someone else's draft, and I'm citing some publications in a theological periodical where the official archives (as accessed through the link just a few words back) are hosted on google drive.

For these sources, do I:

• ⓐ direct link the google drive pdf for the cited article like it's no big deal
• ⓑ link the issue containing each article, so it's possible to navigate back to the archive root and more clear I'm not just tossing a random Chinese pdf onto google drive myself (adding an |article-number= or other navigation instructions since obviously the pdfs are not titled the same as the articles)
• ⓒ no link
• ⓓ some better idea I haven't thought of

I'm leaning ⓑ, but it's a weird case I haven't encountered before. Folly Mox (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

ⓑ sounds plausible, as it may well be more robust than ⓐ, plus the link will look more "official". Gawaon (talk) 06:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to leave a hidden note so that anyone coming across it later knows why a google drive link is being used. If I came across this I would be concerned that someone had posted it to google drive without copyright permissions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I've got an html comment in one of the four articles cited, but I might add additional clarity with something like |via=Google drive (official archives). Folly Mox (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Citations for individually authored chapters in edited books

Are citing individual chapter authors in edited books a requirement? Or is it optional? I have thought citing the entire edited book is acceptable [1], but that might not be the case [2]2.4.2? Bogazicili (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Edited books tend to have chapters/sections/contributions authored by someone other than the editor. If you are citing an author's chapter/section/contribution in an edited book, state that in your citation; don't make our readers hunt for whatever it is that you claim supports our article. Be specific down to page number: Title (name the editor(s)) → section (name the author(s)) → page(s) that support our article.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I always give page numbers in references for books. When not available, for example in dictionary-like sources with entries, I use the |loc parameter. Are individual authors still required for chapters? Bogazicili (talk) 17:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Provide the chapter contributor if you have that information. Folly Mox (talk) 17:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course I have that information. I'm mainly asking this for Turkey. In the Turkey#Sources section, I have a lot of edited books with individually authored chapters, like [3].

I was thinking if I should switch to a style such as Climate_change#Sources, where individual chapters are cited and are grouped by report/book. Bogazicili (talk) 17:49, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

If these are for short form references you can use {{harvc}}. It creates a link between the short form and the full cite in which you can put the chapter details. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:55, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

For example see the second cite in Bible#Works cited. The cite is for The Literary Guide to the Bible, while the two entries below it are chapters in that work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:59, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

{{harvc}} was exactly what I was thinking. But I was thinking about grouping everything in Turkey#Sources by Books, Collections, Reports and Others. Collections would be edited works with individually authored chapters. But your example actually looks much cleaner.

Are all of these acceptable, or is any one of them preferred:

Grouped by various criteria: Climate_change#Sources

Chapters under source with {{harvc}}: Bible#Works_cited

Chapters separate, might be multiple citations to same book. For example: "Smith, Kirk R.; Pillarisetti, Ajay (2017). "Chapter 7 Household Air Pollution from Solid Cookfuels and Its Effects on Health". In Kobusingye, O.; et al. (eds.) ..." Sustainable_energy#Sources? Bogazicili (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe there's a dictated way it has to be done, just options you can choose from. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:48, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Saying that the situation at Climate change, and other articles using the IPCC reports, are like that because of how the IPCC reports get published. They are forever having to be fixed, as it's such an unusual way of linking cites. So personally I wouldn't use that method, if I was doing it I would use {{harvc}}. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I tried replicating it with harvc but I don't think you can get the desired output given all the authors are listed as IPCC. There doesn't seem to be a way to identify a custom chapter reference ID, similar to book reference ID with |ref={{harvid... Bogazicili (talk) 20:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes harvc is limited to the default author/year. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:07, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no "official" preference for one of those three. If you're instead asking for personal preferences, I prefer that like under Bible (source with sublist chapters) (eg in Julius Caesar). Ifly6 (talk) 18:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

An important point for the reader is if one of those individual chapter authors is also cited in another work. If you want to track the opinions of various authors and how they contribute to the article, then it is better to see the bibliography ordered by those authors. The grouping of authors in one edited volume destroys the ability to quickly assess where the article content comes from and may conceal a reliance on one author. (That reliance may be appropriate in some subjects, but that in itself may be useful to the reader.) ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 20:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the answers everyone!

Now, if multiple chapters within a single edited book need to be cited, what's the preference? Citing the entire book with a single reference, or using multiple separate references to each chapter? Bogazicili (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There was a rather rambling discussion (I did not reread it) at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 59 § Proposal for an "in-title" ("In" + title) parameter that I think was what caused me to create this sandbox page which may be of interest.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:55, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

In climate change, we follow the reference suggestion in reports (see part about Referencing this report: [4]) So they all have IPCC as the author. I think the way for harvc to work in this case would be a |ref-chapter, a unique custom ID for the chapter. But I doubt it's worth the trouble if no other page needs it. Bogazicili (talk) 22:06, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I've had some edges cases before like citing works preserved fragmentarily in citations within a different work that has survived transmission to the present day. For these, {{harvc}} doesn't work because the publication dates for the fragmentary works strictly precede that of the work they're now found within. I'll just create regular citations with custom citeref values and format them similar to chapters, indented one level and underneath the full work they appear in. A similar approach might work for your IPCC chapters. The metadata probably ends up kinda garbagey, but it makes sense to someone actually reading the article. Folly Mox (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the answers. By the way, one suggestion I would make after the above discussion is adding something here: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Books

Currently: Citations for individually authored chapters in books typically include:
Suggestion, something like: Citations for individually authored chapters in books are recommended. These typically include:

As I said, I previously thought this was optional, but there seems to be a strong preference for it Bogazicili (talk) 22:17, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove citation tools from this page

I propose that most of the § Citation templates and tools be removed from this page. First, I don't think a content guideline page is a good place for this content. Second, it duplicates an existing page, Help:Citation tools. To be precise, I propose that the following sections be removed from this page, and merged into Help:Citation tools insofar as they are useful there:

• § Citation generation tools
• § Duplicate reference finders
• § Programming tools
• § Reference management software

The text directly under the section § Citation templates and tools and the § Metadata section should stay. Daask (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea to me. Duplicated pages mean we have to update everything twice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree Moxy🍁 01:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

How to cite something in newspapers.com?

What's the right way to generate a URL for a publicly-viewable clipping in newspapers.com? Cannonball (Milwaukee Road train) had a reference that linked to https://www.newspapers.com/image/1066814482 but that gets you to "You need a subscription to view this page" if you're not logged in. So I logged into my account and generated a clipping, which has a URL of https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-waukesha-county-freeman-cannonball-c/159032901/ which is only marginally better; if you're not logged in, it gets you to an image of the page that's too small to read the type, and if you click on it, you're back to "Create a free account, or sign in". I thought the idea of a clipping was that it was publicly viewable. Am I just doing it wrong? RoySmith (talk) 22:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith, so far as I can tell, a clipping image is always the same width for logged-out viewers. So, if you're clipping one column, even if it's a long one, then the legibility is good. Clipping a whole page across will come out fuzzy. Wikipedia:Newspapers.com says that we're meant to use clippings rather than "/image/" links, so I've been doing it that way. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Per Rjjiii, clipping image can be seen by non-logged or logged-out viewers and you should take a news block for clipping instead of the whole page and use the "/article/" link. Here is an example (taken from a citation in WXYZ-TV)

<ref>{{cite news |last1=Johnson |first1=L.A. |date=February 3, 1995 |title=Channel 4 newscasts take the ratings lead in Detroit |url=https://www.newspapers.com/article/detroit-free-press-channel-4-newscasts-t/120083876/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20241012091020/https://www.newspapers.com/article/detroit-free-press-channel-4-newscasts-t/120083876/ |archive-date=October 12, 2024 |access-date=March 3, 2023 |work=[[Detroit Free Press]] |pages=3F, [https://www.newspapers.com/article/detroit-free-press-channel-4-news-wins-r/156927271/ 6F] |via=[[Newspapers.com]]}}</ref> Vulcan❯❯❯Sphere! 09:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

In my case, the original article was laid out so as to span the full width of the page. RoySmith (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

doi for a conference paper

This edit[5] introduced the new source given the name "Bill 2006". The source is a conference paper, but has a doi, so I used the cite journal template to generate the reference. That all seemed to work fine, but it produces an error message "Cite journal requires |journal= (help)". The template seems to provide the best result for someone who wants to check the reference, but, of course, there is no journal. Is there a solution to this problem?

Incidentally, there is some reason to use caution in citing conference papers. However, this example has been cited by others in a way that supports it as an RS, and it is written by a leading authority in the field. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 20:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

If it's not published in a journal you shouldn't be using cite journal, you're looking for cite conference. There's generally no editorial control over conference papers, as you would have with a journal article. So it's reliability is mostly on the author. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Re "There's generally no editorial control over conference papers": [citation needed]. Maybe this is true for some fields but it is far from universal. The computer science conferences I'm familiar with are highly selective and have a strict editorial process involving multiple independent peer reviews. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

This also applies to the military history ones I am familiar with. They have strict editorial processes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

That's why I said generally, as it's in no way a universal situation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

{{cite conference |last1=Bill |first1=Jan |date=2006 |section=From Nordic to North European. Analysis in the study of changes in Danish shipbuilding A.D. 900 to 1600 |editor-first=Ronald |editor-last=Bockius |title=Between the Seas. Transfer and Exchange in Nautical Technology. Proceedings of the Eleventh International Symposium on Boat and Ship Archaeology, Mainz 2006 |doi=10.13140/2.1.5120.3204}}

Bill, Jan (2006). "From Nordic to North European. Analysis in the study of changes in Danish shipbuilding A.D. 900 to 1600". In Bockius, Ronald (ed.). Between the Seas. Transfer and Exchange in Nautical Technology. Proceedings of the Eleventh International Symposium on Boat and Ship Archaeology, Mainz 2006. doi:10.13140/2.1.5120.3204.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the above. The point about conference papers and their reliability is dealt with in this case by tracking the classification used in the paper to later peer-reviewed articles that reference the conference paper. The classification is clearly adopted as a useful way of thinking. It is not presented in the Wikipedia article as a definitive classification as the supporting peer-reviewed material does not make it clear whether or not that is the case. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 14:46, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested, @David Eppstein, @Hawkeye7, @ThoughtIdRetired, @Trappist the monk: You may be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Conference proceedings. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I have the page watchlisted and have been following the discussion, but I don't have anything to add at this point. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Citing a source that's split across multiple URLs / sites?

How does one cite a source that is available online but only in fragmentary form? e.g. a single 10-chapter work with chapters 1-5 at SomeSite.org and chapters 6-10 at AnotherSite.com?

The specific example this is in reference to is the book Machine Methods of Accounting: A manual of the basic principles of operation and use of international electric accounting machines. It's online at [6] except for chapter/section 23 which is missing on that site but is online on a different site at [7]. Alex Hajnal (talk) 19:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You can do something like what I did at Molasses Reef Wreck, with in-line citations pointing to different entries in a References section. You should create a citation for the main book, with a sub-citation for the bulk of the book, and a second sub-citation for chapter/section 23. Then have the in-line citations point to the appropriate entry in the References section. Let me know if you need help on the details. Donald Albury 21:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I took a look at what you suggested however it doesn't seem like a good fit for the existing article (which uses a single unified References section).

I'm thinking something like the following as existing references (of which there are many) won't need to be changed; new or updated references can all use the same ref but append the page or section number e.g. (<ref name=MMA />{{rp|18-3}}) or (<ref name=MMA />{{rp|§18}}).

* [[IBM 034]]: Alphabetic Duplicating Printing Key Punch; 1933<ref name=MMA>{{cite book |title=Machine Methods of Accounting: A manual of the basic principles of operation and use of international electric accounting machines |publisher=IBM |year=1936}}<br />
Single book divided into separate pamphlets:
* {{cite web |url=https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/AM2-00.pdf |title=AM-0 Introduction (revised)}}
* (other sections skipped for this example)
* {{cite web |url=https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/AM2-24.pdf |title=AM-24 International Automatic Carriage}}
</ref>

This renders as:

• IBM 034: Alphabetic Duplicating Printing Key Punch; 1933

Thoughts? Alex Hajnal (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2024 (UTC)