Talk:Christian metal

Someone forgot the obvious.

Black Sabbath ring any bells? They were the first to put pro Christian beliefs into metal. They sang anti satanic songs and had Christian crosses all over the stage.Rockgenre (talk)Rockgenre 19:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Really? COuld you cite some examples? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

See this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbw2cZZR-4k&feature=related Rockgenre (talk)Rockgenre 02:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, Sabbath's title song has the lyrics, "Oh no, no, please God help me!". Also "After Forever" has a very pro Christian message. They were the first to Christianity into metal. They should be mentioned.--.Rockgenre (talk) 03:38, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Quoting songs is not a ground for inclusion, as they could be interpeted in any possible way. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 18:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

In Metal: a headbanger's journey it was confirmed that Sabbath were Christians. They even performed with Christian crosses on stage. They were the first in this genre.Rockgenre (talk)Rockgenre 19:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

With that logic, Slayer would be a Christian band as well. They obviously aren't. It is more than their personal beliefs, and the occasional reference to "God" that makes a Christian metal band. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 19:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The lyrics for Sabbath's "After Forever" are not at all ambiguous: "They should realize before the criticize that God is the only way to love." — Preceding unsigned comment added by CLSwiki (talk • contribs) 19:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

"the occasional reference to "God"". Hello, "After Forever" has that.--Rockgenre 19:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockgenre (talk • contribs)

I find this discussion completely ignorant of the ideals of what the Christian music genre is. The main ideas behind the music is, in the very least, that it is made by people who are professing Christians , a slightly higher standard held by many fans, that the music has direct relation to the Christian life (worship, focuses on glorifying God, deals with theological themes, etc.). The nature of the of Black Sabbath was not pro-Christian at all des[ite coopting Christian symbols. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Sabbath even did a Church benefit concert, I'm not kidding here. They even confirmed that their songs were anti-santanic(I forget where, but I will find the source in a day or two).--Rockgenre 20:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockgenre (talk • contribs)

What you guys are not understanding is that Black Sabbath did not preach christianity, they have never identified themselves as being a christian music group, and their songs do not predominantly have christian themes. Sorry for being harsh and/or offensive, but it is incredibly stupid to think that cherry picking a few lyrics from one or two songs that have the word "god" in them makes them a christian music group. Just stop getting high on jesus for two seconds and actually use your damn brain. 67.180.86.178 (talk) 20:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow! Do you really think that this discussion is still relevant one and a half years later? (No offense, I'm just joking, but really?)--3family6 (talk) 21:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree with some of you: if you identify your Metal group with Christianity your group should be Christian Metal (we can agree with that), but even if your lyrics are not at all Christian? I think that Black Sabbath never identifies themselves as Chistian Rock (or Metal), but they should not be cited as an anti-Christian group. Please read all the lyrics of Master of Reality (http://lyrics.rockmagic.net/lyrics/black_sabbath/master_of_reality_1971.htm) and see that the term "the world" matches exactly as the evangelic preachers use it. And in reverse, please cite any anti-Christian lyrics from Black Sabbath prior to 1975. We all know that some of them (Ozzy, etc.) are the worst examples of living, but the lyrics and music remain as their legacy (maybe the best thing they've do). As I see it (BS fan) their lyrics are more close to white than to black metal. After 40 years of "After Forever" release, we can re-read it and use our own mind to evaluate, not the "traditional" concepts. Thank you for reading this, regards. Aalberdi (talk) 01:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree with you, but it's not just about Black Sabbath's lyrics, it was their image. They made themselves out to be anti-Christian. That may not have been their choice. It may have been the choice of their label, or their manager, but it was their image. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick response, and please analyze the phrase: "Among the early bands to add negative connotations to the term was Black Sabbath, combining heavy metal music with "occult symbols and odes to the Devil"". According to our gentle conversation, could be changed to something like that: "Is of generally belief that, among the early bands to adding negative connotations to the term was Black Sabbath, combining heavy metal music with an image of anti-Christian, even if their early lyrics and cross imaginery do not plenty support this image". Please give them a second chance, have mercy. Thank you again. Aalberdi (talk) 02:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Fratello Metallo

Someone please also add Fratello Metallo to this page... I don't know where to categorise the music... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.101.119.75 (talk) 11:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Fratello Metallo could be mentioned in an article or section titled "Christianity and heavy metal music" (if it would exist, that is), or this article section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_rock_music#Christianity ? --Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Christian Metal Radio needs "Santuary" on Christian Metal

Adding a small Christian Metal Radio section to article under the supervision of Walter Görlitz. Not just focussing on The Full Armor of God Broadcast but several key Christian Metal Broadcasters throughout the years. TY! Armorbearer777 (talk) 09:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Academic research on Christian metal

It appears someone has done academic research on Christian metal: link. Amazingly well-written I must say. It clears several misunderstandings, contains many sources and sharp arguments that could be cited in the wikiarticle, perhaps under a new section "Christian metal subculture" "Sosiology of Christian metal" "Evangelistic goals" etc. I'm not sure where to start. Opinions?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 00:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

As a source, this is good. However, it should not be heavily relied upon, particularly if it contradicts other sources on the broader Christian music industry. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. It's tempting though since this type of source material is difficult to come by. Perhaps his main thesis "In relaton to current debates on religious scange and transformation in the West, it is argued that the Christian metal music scene provides its core members with important resources for the shaping of an alternative and complementary form of religious expression and practice and an alternative Christian identity." could be mentioned? Also, the person recently published a doctorate thesis based on the Finnish Christian metal subculture, and has an article on the Internet's role on the transnational Christian metal scene. As far as I know, there are people working on similar studies in the US at the moment. Would it be best to wait until there's more such material?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 12:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Not having read the material, I can't really comment. My one concern is that it's not a single, fringe opinion. Feel free to read the material and contribute anything you deem fitting. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Now there's a new section on this. Let me know what you think.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Christian Metal Radio

It's really just one giant promotional coatrack and I think it should be removed from the article. Ridernyc (talk) 06:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep - I obviously think it should be kept. Christian Metal Radio is an important part of Christian Metal History and needs to be noted. But I think it should be limited to a select few notable staions, DJ's and syndicated shows that have pioneered Christian Metal Radio over the years. Or else it will go overboard with every "Tom, DICK & Harry that has a podcast or internet radio station. Armorbearer777 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I cleaned up the section, removed some shows without WP:RS. Hopefully this will help keep, what is an important part of Christian Metal History.Armorbearer777 (talk) 08:57, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think any stations should be listed at all. The paragraph is fine and mentioning shows in the prose about how they contributed to Christian metal is fine, but listing them like they are right now is putting undue weight on the shows. Reading them as they stand right now none of them expand my knowledge of Christian metal in the slightest they are all just descriptions of the show and to be honest there's nothing special or unique about any of them. Again the section is a coatrack. Ridernyc (talk) 10:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the list should be pared-back. I agree with Armorbearer777 that radio played, and continues to play an important role in the dissemination of the genre. Podcasts have started to fill that role in. The reason this section started is because Armorbearer777 was having a difficult time creating an article on its own. Perhaps that issue could be discussed: is there sufficient material to create a separate article and we simply retain references to how they helped promote the genre? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure it needs it's own article. The paragraph that's there is fine, it's the listing of shows that is the issue. If you can't work it into the prose of that paragraph and show why it's important then it really is not part of the article. Simply listing the name of the show, who hosts it and maybe some segments of the show is not adding any information about the subject. I know this played an important in the development and history of the subject, but listing a directory of individual shows is not adding information on the subject. This is a major problem in these types of articles, slowly overtime the article stops being about anout the genre and starts to become a directory of bands in that genre. The focus here should be Christian Metal and it's development and history, if something did not have a major significant impact on Christian Metal it should not be mentioned. As far as lumping these all together into one separate article you will have the same problem, that article would be about Christian Metal radio/media, listing individual shows would take away focus from the subject. It also comes close to crossing into being a directory/program guide. The best course of action would be to try to create articles for shows that have enough notability to have their own articles. Otherwise we run into numerous issues. Ridernyc (talk) 13:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Didn't mean to create any poblems that could hurt Christian Metal or this Christian Metal Radio section. I would love to see the radio section be able to stand on it's own as an article, but am thankful enough that it has found a home here for as long as it has. Everything seemed to stable with this article until just recently. Forgive me, I am such a HUGE Christian Metal Radio fan, I could easily write a 5 page article on this subject. I admit that it has been difficult for me include some things and have to leave out others. I also see the point about it becoming a directory. I am not sure how it should be re-written, but out of respect for this great article, I will leave the matter to more experienced Christian Metal article editors. I am personally a fan of each station, DJ and syndicated program that is listed and that has been removed, so it is hard for me not to get sentimental about what stays and what goes. I have tried to keep this section as minimalistic as possible, but there is just so much to say on this subject. Since I originally came into this article working with Walter Görlitz, I will yield to his and everyone elses discression on the matter. Armorbearer777 (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Complete deletion until consensus? Seems a bit heavy-handed. I say we have a brief description of some of the key pioneers and leave it at that. I don't think wee need to go into show-times, or bands that were played. maybe some indication of where they started. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Christian Metal Radio is, in of itself, mostly underground but it continues to gain growing support and therefore should have a place on Wiki. I saw no problem with the list of specific radio shows that have been around longer than a year and have growing support. As a reader I would find it very useful as it would inform me of specifics. However, who is to say what is considered notable, especially when there is a lot of bias from the people involved with the disputes and contribs. The list of shows was small... So either all should be included or keep it as it stands with no particular show listed, only the stations themselves. Ihopeican143 (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Until an inclusion criteria is established the entire section should be removed. At this point there have been over 30 revisions to the section in less then 2 days. It's very clear there is a lack of consensus and a pretty major edit war going on. Since there is no consensus for an inclusion criteria the only reasonable way to deal with the edit war is to remove the entire section until a consensus has been reached. Ridernyc (talk) 18:08, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

At this point there have been thirty revisions in less than two days, but some have been changes in structure and it's not clear to me that there is a lack of consensus, nor is it a full edit war. I've seen far worse. It seems to be two editors trying to find middle ground on the topic. One feels that the underground broadcasts should have a place while the other thinks there should only be representation from the syndicated broadcasts and podcasts. Since you offer no opinion in moving this disagreement forward, aside from blanking, would you please consider rescuing yourself from editing unless you can offer an opinion? Feel free to revert anything that you feel is not reasonably added to the page, bit don't step on the toes of the editors who are here. Thanks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

FYI - I have no issue with underground non-syndicated programs like pulse radio beind mentioned, but with limited space I fee that we should focus on key pioneers in Christian Metal Radio. pulse has not had the imcat of coverage that a Pastor Bob, HM Podcast or Full Armor of God Broadcast has achieved. If we had room enough I woul love to see it mentioned, but now it is going to be difficult enough to establish WP:RS enough for a Pastor Bob, HM, Radio U and Full Armor of God Broadcast since all of these cutting edge Christian Metal broadcasters have been struggling with their own articles standing alone on Wikipedia due to WP:RS issues. So I am more interested in seeing the key pioneers mentioned before I am concerrned about mentioning shows like pulse with much less coverage and history.Armorbearer777 (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with this decision and appreciate your assistance on the matter, Ridernyc. However, I find this extremely unfortunate and would hope and prefer that all parties involved will just agree to restore the list as it is and end this silly dispute. Ihopeican143 (talk) 18:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but you need to compromise I don't think anyone here supports the amount of entries you want to have on the list. Ridernyc (talk) 18:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand. I guess my reasoning for that statement was because there was no issue with the list until Metal Pulse was added, which again, stems from a personal dispute outside of Wiki. The list was small as it was and saw no reason to shorten it. However, I agree there needs to be some checks and balances so we do not get every person with some internet radio show posting on here. I am open to discussing what those guidelines should be.

That's why talk pages are here you don't constantly revert the article trying to find consensus you find consensus through discussion on the talk page. And yes the 20 revisions that happened yesterday were not about structure they were a full on edit war. And I have offered a way to move forward, consensus needs to be established here. Until there is a consensus for an inclusion criteria the section should stay blank. If you would like we could take this to dispute resolution but the odds are they will send it back here until a consensus is formed here. Ridernyc (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed guidelines. In the article as it stands it lists some on the "notable" Christian metal internet radio stations. Such as: Almighty Metal Radio, Savage Rock Radio, Reign Radio, The Refinery Rock Radio, FuelRadio.fm, The Cross Stream, Blabber Jesus Radio and Metal Blessing Radio.... How about this proposal? A show can be listed if it is supported by one of the "notable" Christian metal/rock internet radio stations listed in the main article?

Remember this article is about Christian Metal, not radio shows focus needs to stay on topic throughout the article. If you can show how those shows are important to Christian Metal then include them. If the shows are "Notable" they should be able to have there own articles and do not need to be covered here. Ridernyc (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Fair enough. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to make my case here? I assume that’s what you’re saying so I will make my case. Since my dispute was primarily focused on the inclusion of Metal Pulse Radio (MPR) I will explain why it should be included. First of all, MPR is well supported by major Christian Metal organizations such as Sanctuary International (S.I.). Many well-known Christian indie labels such as Nightmare Records, Retro Records, and Rowe Productions also support it, asking MPR to support their bands with airtime. MPR also sponsors a stage night through S.I. at Cornerstone Festival (one of the biggest Christian Metal/Rock festivals in the U.S.). Needless to say, it is well known and thus notable. It’s also worth noting that MPR is also very unique from most Christian Internet radio shows in that it is aired ‘Live”, bringing a regular radio feel to the show. This is rare among Christian Radio shows. Now concerning MPR’s contribution to the topic of “Christian metal”. Unlike most of the shows listed that mainly focus on well-known bands, MPR primarily focuses on underground/indie bands. Even MPR’s stage night at Cornerstone Festival gives the majority of slots to upcoming Christian Metal bands. This is a major contribution to Christian Metal because it exposes many people to a huge Christian Metal underground scene that they may have not known about otherwise. The underground scene is the life of Christian Metal and has to be included in this topic. That’s where it began and it continues to breathe new life into this arena. MPR is unique and rare in its format by keeping the public informed and exposed to this scene and thus plays a very key role to the topic of “Christian Metal”--Radio. Ihopeican143 (talk) 19:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

No more Adds or Removals Without Discussion After further thought in all due respect to Ridernyc, you were right to remove the last edit by Ihopeican143 but wrong to remove the entire list without discussion. I am taking it upon myself to undo your edit. It has been agreed no more edits without discussion, until than the section should hold as stands. Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I apologize, I thought that there was not going ot be any adds or removals until a discussion. My Bad.. I will stay out of this than. I just dont see why established names like Pastor Bob, HM Podcast and Full Armor of God Broadcast have to get removed because of one internet show that gets maybe 15 listeners.. But I will leave this matter to the adults to discuss.. Be blessed.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Tongues of Fire, Necro Shock & Pulse Radio

I like all these shows, but am not sure if they should stay listed.

1) They are not syndicated on multiple stations. (Necro Shock was, but currently isn't now.

2) Tongues of Fire, was "debatably" one of the first to broadcast Christian Metal on FM airwaves, but does not have a very substantial following. Necro Shock Radio is a very cutting edge show, but still a very selective audience. and Pulse Radio only hase between 6-12 listeners according to Shout Cast.

Perhaps there is a way that we could make a short bullet list?? I don't know.. I hate to see this get to be a feeding frenzy of every one with an internet radio show or podcast trying to add their show, but I do believe that the syndicated shows listed now deserve honorable mention as pioneers in Christian Metal Broadcasting and in that they all have broadcast for over a decade and have a listenership in the thousands, according to Shoutcast, iTunes, Go Daddy and the Arbitron Ratings System. Reremeber, the list was of "notable pioneering Christian Metal radio shows and DJs" not a list of good shos & DJs. I hate to see this section hurt Christian Metal, but I don't want it to get out of hand. I would like to see it have it's own article, but I know how hard that will be to achieve, but than we would have more room and could list these shows and others. nad to my knowledge there is no personal dispute to speak of. I don't have the answers.. but I don't want to see this section get deleted. Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen a reflink yet that shows why CMR is worth mentioning at all. Why is radio important to the development and popularity of Christian metal? That's a really easy question to answer and should be sourceable to magazines, newspapers, reliable web commentary &c - but I haven't seen a version that explains it. After that I'd suggest mentioning the shows and stations that were key in the early development (with sources that back up why they were important) and then a (very) brief list of most popular current shows (without timetables) and a bit about podcasts. You can decide what to include based on listenership and external review site ratings. Franamax (talk) 00:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The section does not seem like a sore thumb in the Christian metal article. I don't mind it being kept. It is sourced. THe radio aspect of it does seem like a notable part of the Christian metal culture. We'll see how this turns out. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 00:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, if stations, DJ's and Syndicated radio shows must verify WP:RS (which will be very difficult given that print publications generally do not cover radio, let alone Christian Metal Radio) perhaps it would be best to start from the ground up. I have gone ahead and removed all of the stations mentioned too, so now we can start over from the ground up, first establishing Christian Metal Radio's relevance on the genre, than establishing criteria in what stations, DJ and Syndicated shows are refferenced.Armorbearer777 (talk) 03:10, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Starting from the ground up would mean starting with Reliable Sources, we can not work on anything without sources. Ridernyc (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

First in establishing Christian Metal Radio's relevance to Christian Metal

I have kept the following entry:

"Since Christian Metal is very much a counterculture of the Christian music scene, it has never had any major corporate radio outlets, as opposed to the more accepted GMA associated Christian music formats. Christian Metal Radio can be hard to reference and even more difficult to establish notability for. Nevertheless, Christian Metal has remained culturally significant, primarily enduring the test of time through word of mouth and through the help of pioneering Christian Rock & Metal broadcasters. In spite of the lack of commercial radio support, Christian Metal broadcasters have managed to hit the airwaves on public radio, college radio, internet radio and in recent years through podcasting via the internet. As the new age of digital technology becomes more accessible to the general public, the number of Christian Metal broadcasters is steadily increasing."

What is the concensus on this verbage?? If all agree that this section can be kept, than I motion that we look at entering examples for Christian Metal Radio once we can agree on the criteria.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 03:02, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Needs to be referenced, you can't post original research and ignore policy simply because you make the statement that it's hard to reference. Lets cut to the chase here and make this simple, do you have any reliable sources that show radios influence on Christian Metal. Ridernyc (talk) 13:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Walter Görlitz "Since you offer no opinion in moving this disagreement forward, aside from blanking, would you please consider rescuing yourself from editing unless you can offer an opinion? Feel free to revert anything that you feel is not reasonably added to the page, bit don't step on the toes of the editors who are here. It doesn't seem like you are interested in contributing anything constructive to this section or else you would offer some type of constructive input. The key Christian Metal Radio stations, syndicated programs and DJ's are the refferences to Christian Metal Radio, not the other way around. These can be determined by arbitron rating (current and former), shout cast stats, iTunes, google results and coverage of broadcast areas. Again as it says in the article, "Christian Metal Radio can be hard to reference and even more difficult to establish notability for. Nevertheless, Christian Metal has remained culturally significant, primarily enduring the test of time through word of mouth and through the help of pioneering Christian Rock & Metal broadcasters." And according to WP:N "Article topics are required to be notable, or worthy of notice. Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or the popularity of a topic—although those may enhance the acceptability" and most of these are stations, shows and DJ's are refferencing "Christian Metal" via Christian Metal Radio with electronic media according to WP:SELFPUB and WP:SOURCES.Armorbearer777 (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes they require sourcing which is what I asked for. Ridernyc (talk) 18:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait.. You are putting the cart before the horse. You asked to determine Christian Metal Radio's relenance to Christian Metal, did you not? So let's break this down first one step at a time, before we get to the station, shows & DJs. First do you feel that what is currently on the section adiquately explaines the relevance or not. Why or why not. If you are going to contibute, than contribute. If not, that it seems you just want to flame this discussion to achive this topics deletion and that is another matter. So before we discuss the stations, shows and DJs, what about Christian Metal Radio's relevance to Christian Metal, that is the current discusion and where anyone who genuinely cares about this topic should be. If you have anything constructive to contribute, please do.Armorbearer777 (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I think Ridernyc is simply saying that there needs to something to back up what you're saying. It cannot just be blanket statements without references and support for said statements. Ihopeican143 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything was references with electronic media according to WP:SELFPUB and WP:SOURCES. Now we go step by step over everything, is what is currently written ok or not? I think it is. If you disagree why and what needs to be changed with the way the section currently stands. Armorbearer777 (talk) 19:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

No it's not ok because it has no referencing from Reliable Sources, it can not be in the article without proper referencing. You have basically just said it can not be properly sourced therefore none of this can be in the article. Basically you are writing your own essay here. Ridernyc (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok,, good general comment, but explain what and why. Please ellaborate on specifics please. Armorbearer777 (talk) 19:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I reworded some parts of your(Amorbearer777) proposed contrib to better fit the point. "Since Christian Metal is very much a counterculture of the Christian music scene, it has never had much major corporate radio outlets, as opposed to the more accepted GMA associated Christian music formats. Nevertheless, one major factor in establishing and maintaining Christian Metal’s significance has been through the help of independent Christian Rock & Metal radio. In spite of the lack of commercial radio support, Christian Metal broadcasters have managed to hit the airwaves on public radio, college radio, internet radio and in recent years through pod-casting via the internet. As the new age of digital technology becomes more accessible to the general public, the impact of Christian Metal Radio continues to steadily increase." However, the issue of references still remain. While I agree with what is basically being said; I'm still not sure how to support these statements. Ihopeican143 (talk) 20:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

You're drawing near to the point here, everything in the proposed wording might be true, but this is Wikipedia - it has to be verifiable. If all you have is links to websites that prove a station or show exists, then all you can say is "this station/show exists", you can't draw any conclusions. For instance "one major factor...through...independent [CRM] radio" - who says so? Franamax (talk) 20:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything on original Christian Metal Radio section was referenced, but with electronic media according to WP:SELFPUB and WP:SOURCES. Very different than published "print" source, but ligitimate none the less.Armorbearer777 (talk) 20:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you point me to a specific version of the page? All I've seen is links that prove the existence of these entities, dates they started, etc. I wasn't able to find links to sources which support the conclusions you wish to draw. If I've missed something, please do point it out. Franamax (talk) 21:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Yea, I understand what you're saying. Again, while I 'personally' believe the above statement to be true I don't have sources to verify it as fact. I think the issue is because it is so underground that sources are limited. Also, it's just common knowledge within those communities, however, i recognize that is not good enough for something like Wikipedia. We need sources to verify these statements, I'm just not sure where to get them....yet. Ihopeican143 (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

AWESOME comments! Now we're cookin with CRISCO! Not sure if what you changed actually did much to make it better, but I can go with this. There are several general wikipedia refferences on the paragraph (see the current section on the page). This is where it should be a matter for the more experiencedChristian Metal editors to handle (but also including Ihopeican143 & myself), not really a matter for those who have little understanding of the Christian Metal genre or it's relevance to Christian Music as a whole. In Christian Music there are major coporate radio otlets galore! But in Christian Metal and Christian Metal Radio, it radio coverage is much more obtuse. I think we are getting on track here and moving in the right direction with this now, but it is not going to be fixed overnight. I am sure that the entire Christian Metal article itself came under much of the same types of criticisms that Ridernyc is making about Christian Metal Radio, but just as Christian Metal has endured the test of time on wikipedia, I believe that Christian Metal Radio will also endure. I am going to get some input from some editor of Wiki-porject Christian Radio, I am sure they can help. I won't be on wikipedia much until next week, but I will try check back in form time to time to see how things are going. I think if we take our time and work this out slowly and steadily, we will get this section back up and running. Armorbearer777 (talk) 20:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately Armorbearer, "not really a matter for those who have little understanding of the ... genre" doesn't work here, everyone gets a kick at the cat as far as whether edits comply with policy. You don't get to pick who to include and who to exclude. Widening the circle of comment is always a good idea, for sure, Ridernyc has already posted at WP:Christian music, WP:RADIO and WP:Christianity might be good ideas too. The more eyes the better. Your active participation in finding third-party sources would be much better than just believing something will endure. I understand it is a difficult road to travel, drawing the link between something you know and something you can prove, but Wikipedia makes everyone do that. It's nothing personal or aimed at your particular topic, it's a mill that everything gets ground up in. Franamax (talk) 21:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I see your point, but what I am saying is as I,myself am only a 2nd year rookie editor and Ihopeican143 is just a brand NEW 1 week old Wiki-editor, the ultimate determination of the re-writing of this section should be kept "in-house" with Christian Metal editors, before any submissions are made. Than when we get to that point the more experienced Christian Metal editors can deal with all of you who want to "kick the cat", as you put it. That was all I was saying. This is not a deletion discussion, as far as I know. This section stood for months, uncontested until just recently when Ihopeican143 stepped into the hornet's nest with his newbie mistakes. Also, you did not comment at all about my point on citing electronic media sources according to WP:SELFPUB and WP:SOURCES policy. What is your take on that? I am out for now. Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Every time someone asks you to provide sources you try to change the subject, can you please provide us with sources for the Christian Radio section. Ridernyc (talk) 22:54, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, it is not a matter of sourced material, but sourced according to your berometer. The article was source with "ELECTRONIC MEDIA" in compliance with WP:SELFPUB and WP:SOURCES policy. You want Life magazine and Time Magazine articles, but that is not a realistic standard for Christian Metal Radio sourcing. You are not going to find many if any "print" publications covering Christian Metal Radio except for magazine ads, which would not work either. You are the one who dances around the matter with vague statments that lead to only one out come. Delete delete delete.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 07:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Honestly Mods... Is this really allowed to continue.. This is getting outright ridiculous! I have made several attempts to bury the hatched and move on for the better of the article. You've warned us both with "final" warnings yet it goes on and on with all these little underhanded comments. C'mon.. I'm not being difficult here but his comments have got to stop! It is obvious that there is more issues at play and he wont let it go. Furthermore, the whole idea of certain mods set-out to criticize CMR is absurd. We obviously need mods here to make sure this stays within Wiki guidelines. The fact is, the Christian Metal Radio article was NOT meeting guidelines long before I came here. Our edit war simply drew attention and maybe for the best. I would prefer to see some Mods oversee the establishment of this article. BUT these comments have got to be in check.. He eggs it on and on and on no matter who is saying what. Practically every comment made by someone is replied by Armbearer with these underhanded comments that are NOT productive! Ihopeican143 (talk) 22:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

THIS GUY THINKS THIS IS A FORUM! I am done with this discussion. You are OBVIOUSLY FishermanD the host of pulse radio under a second IP address, which is a far worse violation than any supposed attacking that I am being blamed for here. I thought I did a very good job on this section with sourcing a very obtuse counter culture component. My segment was approved by established editors of Christian Metal and stayed un-contested for almost 3 months. It was Ihopeican143's vandalism & self promotion of pulse radio that brought us to this point (even though the station that airs his show was listed in the article). He than accused me of being someone else and keeping his show off for persoanl reasons (even though I am the one who added the station his show is on). Yes this debockle is out of hand. I originally wrote this article, now I am now pulling the plug on it! If FishemanD or Ihopeican143 or whatever he wants to call himself next week, thinks he can do a better job writing it, than go for it! We'll see how well you do. For now, I wash my hands of it. Sorry for the bad attitude, but this kind of stuff burns me up.. Someone seriously needs to ban this dude for 2 IP adresses! Armorbearer777 (talk) 07:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I will gladly give any admin here the info they need to know where I'm from and who I am to clarify any identity issues or concerns. Ihopeican143 (talk) 09:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• FYI - I've been advised to appologize to the editors involved in this discussion. My behavior, nor my implications were in any way endorsed by The Full Armor of God Broadcast, Full Armor of God Ministries or by Bro Kuba. I have been asked by Full Armor of God Ministries to post this formal appology and step away from this discussion. In my own defence, all of the information that I put into the original section was gathered first hand from speaking and emailing each station, show and DJ mentioned. For those who will be continueing to work on this segment, I strongly feel that the best way to refference Christian Metal Radio is with "Electronic Media Sources" according to WP:SELFPUB & WP:SOURCES policy. Remeber the radio stations, shows & DJs are in actuality sourcing Christian Metal not themselves. Thank You and Be Blessed.Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Page protection

Whoever is right or wrong, you can't just endlessly edit-war. I've protected the article from editing for 24 hours, please reach consensus here on the talk page for the content. Franamax (talk) 09:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I have been a major contributor to the Christian Metal Radio section of the page. Cleaned some of the radio stations and shows without WP:RS. New users flagged for WP:VAN. Returned under NEW username flagged again. disputed content removed. Should be all good now. We just need to keep "Everyone and thier brother who does an internet station or podcast from adding it to the article. TY Armorbearer777 (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't assume it's "all good now", I could just as easily have protected a version you hate. When I see a huge list of reverts where everyone says the other guy is a vandal, I'm not going to try to figure it out. I'll either protect or start blocking everyone in sight for edit-warring.

What you need to do is set out the criteria for inclusion and get consensus from established editors. After that, if someone wants to include something, you point them to the talk page consensus and ask them to discuss. This all might start happening again in 24 hours, so I'd get started if I was you. :) Franamax (talk) 09:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, sorry for anything I did out of order. I am still very much a Wiki-Newbie. I didn't realize that the list of key pioneer radio DJ's & Shows would create any problems. Armorbearer777 (talk) 17:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

By my count you reverted at least ten times, that's way beyond 3RR, even if you are "right" you should never go beyond a 3rd revision. If someone is committing blatant vandalism it may be ok but even then it would still be best to report him and wait for an admin rather then go past 3 revisions. you should read WP:3RR. Ridernyc (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Again I appologize and I leave he matter in more capable hands. Good day all.Armorbearer777 (talk) 17:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That nonsense. The guideline on Wikipedia is to edit hard. There's not concept of consensus from established editors. With that said, I offered Armorbearer777 the right to add the list to the group since other editors were nominating his stand-alone article for deletion. As I have said, I think a list belongs here so I am only willing to discuss how to reduce the list to be more encyclopedic rather than remove it entirely. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

As for the WP:3RR, I see that one editor, Ihopeican143, isn't here to explain his actions. I'm a bit more suspicious about that than I am about an editor who is here trying to "solve" the problem. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

If he was here I would say the some thing to him. It makes no difference the general rule is you don't edit war for any reason. Ridernyc (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I am here.. I am very new to Wiki and was not aware of this discussion until Ridernyc posted on my page to join the discussion. I openly admit I fell into child's play with the whole situation. I let my frustrations get the better of me. As I posted on Franamax's page, this issue stems from an outside dispute between Amorbearer777 and Metal Pulse Radio. It was made clear through a personal email Amorbearer777 sent to the owner of Metal Pulse Radio that this was revenge for said dispute. Wiki is NOT the place to settle this dispute and I'm embarrassed for getting in the middle of all this silliness. Nevertheless, if those radio shows are considered notable then metal Pulse Radio also deserves a place on the list. It is well known in the Christian Metal community and I can (if needed) supply all the information to make such a case. Furthermore, if the mods will note the deletion history you will see that Metal Pulse was targeted right away as being self-promoting. After changes were made it still kept being deleted and accused of self-promotion. After it was clear that this argument could no longer be made because it clearly met Wiki guidelines, you will see that Armorbearer777 then changed the issue of contention to it being un-notable. It's very clear it was being targeted. That's when it got extremely out of hand and became abusive. Ihopeican143 (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

In respect to Ihopeican143, the conflict was not about Pulse Radio as much as it was about the manner in which it was posted. The host of the show posted it and it was way too promotional! It needed to be written on the sandbox, than approved to the page. Nothing more. removing the undos of Wiki Admins didn't help the matter much either. I would like to see Pulse Radio establish more syndication before it could be considered as notable as a Pastor Bob, HM Podcast or Full Armor of God Broadcast, but surely if the edit is re-written and than submitted properly, I see no reason why it couldn't possibly be added in the future, But this EDIT WARING was NOT the way to handle it.Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war. Also the fact that section was started because you wrote an article that failed to meet the GNG and was deleted is a good hint that you should stop throwing around the word notable. It has a very clear definition on Wikipedia. Ridernyc (talk) 22:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I have been working on this section under Walter Görlitz for some time now. I have done everything respectfully and with approval. I never just slammed something on there. Why are you so interested in Christian MEtal anyway, it does not appear to be something that you have much knowledge of by your profile?Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Armorbearer, questions such as "Why are you so interested in Christian Metal anyway" are inappropriate here. Editors are free to work on any topic that interests them and in any case I think Ridermyc's contrivutions here have been helpful. Also, don't get the idea that an editor's "profile", by which I think you mean their user page, restricts the ares where they can edit or even tells you anything about them for that matter. Franamax (talk) 23:56, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

In all due respect to Ridernyc I think you are completely out of order in removing anything without discussion, just as much as anyone who added anything without dicussion. I have a good mind to undo your last edit, but I do not wish to add anymore fuel to this fire. I gave my word to submit to Walter Görlitz and the general consensus of the Christian Metal editors. Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I decided to Undo your ramoval of the list. If there are no more adds without discussion it stand to reason that there should not be any removals without discussion either. I do not believe that this breaks my word Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I apologize, I thought that there was not going ot be any adds or removals until a discussion. My Bad.. I will stay out of this than. I just dont see why established names like Pastor Bob, HM Podcast and Full Armor of God Broadcast have to get removed because of one internet show that gets maybe 15 listeners.. But I will leave this matter to the adults to discuss.. Be blessed.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

As you can see, I just removed all of shows again with the comment: "Seriously. No radio shows until we conclude what criteria should be used for inclusion and what format it should take. No entries of shows until then.". Let's figure out what will work and then restore something worthwhile. I would like to see consensus by the end of the month if possible, but that may not fit everyone's time-line. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Ridernyc

If not the shows, then I would at very least like to see the stations put back into the article. There was no dispute over the stations that were mentioned and they certainly play a bigger role than the radio shows themselves. After all, without the stations, there would be nowhere for these 'shows' to be heard. I also think it serves as good information to support the article concerning Christian Metal Radio. Otherwise, it seems odd to have an article about this topic with no reference to the stations that make this possible. (Again--Stations.. not shows). In fact, maybe that should be The List.??. In other words, instead of a list of 'shows', perhaps there should be a sub-list of stations. By listing the stations it also covers all the shows on those station by association. Besides, in many cases these stations run multiple shows and it's impossible to say what shows define as notable since there is obviously a lot of bias involved here. therefore adding the stations that were int he original article seems very fair to me.. What's your thoughts? Ihopeican143 (talk) 06:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

No, this is not a directory but a history. Some Christian Metal Radio stations that were an huge part of Christian Metal such as Riegn Radio and Intense Radio are no longer running. In other cases such as with Pastor Bob Beaman, HM Magazine and Full Armor of God Broadcast, these shows currently air and/or have aired on FM stations that were not Christian at all. Or in the case of Radio U & The Call FM, they only have one or two Christian Metal shows and the rest of thier format is GMA. This is not myspace or facebook where you promote your station or show, it's a history. I don't think you get what's going on here. This whole thing started because you & FishermanD (the host of pulse radio) didn't go about editing this section the right way. Than you both vandalized the article which put it under the spotlight. The whole reason that this article is in jeapordy right now, is because you lit the flame under it. So the best thing that you could do, is start working on the pulse radio entry in your sandbox and when and "IF" the Christian Metal Radio section of Christian Metal even survives this mess that you guys created, than you can try to submit it again through the proper channels. That is pretty much the "lay of the land". Now we have to start over and re-establish WP:RS for everything pice by piece. The way the article is now, is just establishing Christian Metal Radio's impact on Christian Metal. Once that is agreed upon, than we can figure out the criteria of what stations, syndicated shows and djs are notible enough to be mentioned as examples. You really created a mess here on this section and now you have the unmittigated gaul to demand conditions??!! Oh Lord.. Give me Grace.. By the way,, the concensus is being discussed one section up, in Christian Metal Radio. Armorbearer777 (talk) 07:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me? Are you really taking it to a persoanl level in discussion? I was instructed by the mods to contribute ideas. That's all I was trying to do.. Furthermore, Amorbearer777 you know very well you played a major role in this situation as well. While I openly admit to falling into a childish war with you (and have apologized), I still hold firm that you alone do not get to decide what show is 'notable'. Also, i take issue to the fact you keep comparing Full Armor Broadcast to Pastor Bob of Sanctuary International and HM. You are bias because you are admittedly an intern for Full Armor Broadcast so I understand you may feel this way but it does not make it true. The fact is, there was no contention with these other 'un-notable' radio shows until Metal Pulse was added. Granted, it did need some editing at first but it was quickly fixed to meet the standards of the other shows listed. After that issue was fixed the issue changed with you and became an issue of notability... not till AFTER the text was fixed and revised properly. Believe me, I DO know what is going on here. Unfortunately, there are outside issues playing a role in this situation and it's not right. The personal emails you have sent over the past couple days have taken things way too far. I do not understand the ongoing attacks. I simply want to resolve this without all this drama. The goal of this discussion is to work together not continue the dispute.Ihopeican143 (talk) 07:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no personal issue here. I wrote most of this section under the supervision of Walter Görlitz after respectfully getting his permission. The only bias here is from you and pulse radio, which all you seem to care abou tis pimping your show, not the history of Christian Metal Radio's impact on Christian Metal. I know nothing about any persoanl emails sent to you, I am only an intern there, contact them if you are having any issues with them. I do not even know who you are, unless you are FishermanD under a different username and IP. It is a known fact on wikipedia Christian Metal that as an intern of Full Armor of God Ministries am a big fan and supporter of Pastor Bob, HM as well as Full Armor of God Broadcast, not to mention all Christina Metal radio, including Blabber Jesus Radio, were your show airs. I am the one who added your station to begin with, you rascal.. But, Pastor Bob, HM Magazine and Full Armor of God Broadcast are all definately notable syndicated radio programs that deserve mention on this article as pioneers. I have no bias toward any of them, it is fact based on thier radio coverage and that they have all been broadcasting for over a decade. Pulse radio, though a decent show, is only on one internet station that gets less than 15 listeners and is pretty new. How is it a pioneer? I have pretty much added all the entries so far, under Walter Görlitz, you have not afforded this section the same respect, so don't "cry baby" about how unfair you are being treated here. You started this whole mess. If you wish to try and establish, WP:RS for pulse radio than edit an entry and submit it to the discussion above, but you better have more than just a myspace page for pulse radio as a refference. Otherwise, please "save the drammy for your mammy", ok? Keep any personal issues you have out of this disscussion. And again, FYI, the Christian Metal Radio concensus is the next discussion up, John Nash. Armorbearer777 (talk) 08:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

There are OUTSIDE personal issue at play here on your end and the emails you sent that prove this to be true have been saved in-case any mods here wish to view them. I do not have a bias for Metal Pulse, I am not an intern nor do I gain anything from all this trouble. I just simply will not tolerate 'targeting' for personal reasons. The facts are, one of my ideas have included in exclusion of Metal Pulse. You, on the other hand WORK for Full Armor Broadcast,(even if it is unpaid) that IS a bias! All your suggestions have been designed to keep Full Armor Broadcast on the list. Not Right! Furthermore, Full Armor Broadcast does not even come close to any form of contribution compared to Sanctuary International or HM. Personally, I feel it's almost insulting to those huge contributing ministries to say such a thing. Nevertheless, it is clear by your finger-pointing and wording, you are not looking to resolve this peacefully. At this point, I can only hope the mods can assist in this situation to help bring this to a resolution. Ihopeican143 (talk) 08:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the revisions you just made by removing the name-calling to something less attacking. Ihopeican143 (talk) 08:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

My internship with Full Armor of God Ministries was addressed and determined non-bias. Stick to the facts of Christian Metal radio and how it relates to Christian Metal. It is not about this show vs. that show. You seem to have the issue with The Full Armor of God Broadcast. I do not have an issue with pulse radio, other than it is not a notable "pioneer" in Christian Metal Radio. Pastor Bob, HM magazine, Radio U and "YES" The Full Armro of God Broadcast all are. Please quit adding all this drama.. Stick to the issue. I am not the final authority, just the main writer of the section thus far. It is up to the other editors on Christian Metal. If pulse meets whatever criteria is decided tan it will be added. if not, it won't be. Period. I am ending this pointless diolog with you now, it is going nowhere. Any issues you have outside of wikipedia that have nothing to do with establishing the sourses for this article, should be handled outside of wikipedia.Armorbearer777 (talk) 09:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

We agree on one thing at least.. This is going nowhere. The Mods will need to continue their intervention on the issue and hopefully this can be resolved. Nothing more can be said at this moment. Ihopeican143 (talk) 08:59, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Fair warming to both of you to focus on the article and stop personal attacks. This is heading in a very ugly direction. Ridernyc (talk) 08:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Warning received. It's clear that we're unable to come to an agreement right now and I hope you and other mods can help bring about a solution in due time. Thanks, Ridernyc. Ihopeican143 (talk) 09:01, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

It can clearly be read that I have been trying to keep it focussed here. You invited this guy to the discussion in the first place.. G -Whiz.. There is no agreement betweeen us to be met.. It is a discussion that involves Christian Metal as a whole.. And it will take some time, to sort out now.. I have contributed to the discussion already. Why doesn'tUser:Ihopeican143 just comment on the actual discussion instead of all this yadda yadda.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 09:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

We've been warned so please let us just stop. ok? I do not want banned so lets just get back to the issue at hand and only discuss the topic from now on. :-) Ihopeican143 (talk) 09:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

That's what I've been telling you since you first created this mess. Armorbearer777 (talk) 18:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Then stop replying to him replying to him and dragging him back into it, move on. Ridernyc (talk) 18:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Back at you. Remeber it was you that brought him into this discussion to begin with. Armorbearer777 (talk) 18:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

According to WP guidelines, I'm allowed to participate in the discussion. Ihopeican143 (talk) 20:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree and do appreciate your input here as long as you keep things focused on the matters at hand. Try to refrain from any personal attacks, off site drama or vandalism. Christian Metal needs all the support on wikipedia it can get, including you. You just need to folow protocal on this Christian Metal article and run any edits through established Christian Metal editors like Walter Görlitz BEFORE you add anything to the article and I think you will be ok.Armorbearer777 (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Minus the edit-war, I believe I've stayed within WP guidelines. However, I'm glad we're moving forward. I do believe (as you do) that Christian metal radio is very important to the subject and needs to remain in the article. I look forward to working with everyone to help make that possible. Ihopeican143 (talk) 21:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Very well, just be respectful of all the hard work that others have done here, before you came. If you think it is so easy, just see how far you get trying to post an article about pulse radio before it's deleted. I wouldn't take long I assure you. Allot of editors worked very hard to build the Christian Metal article and they were nice enough to allow me to put this Christian Metal Radio section in this article, when my attempts to make a stand alone article failed. But if this debockle ends up becoming a festering limb that jeapordizes the whole Christian Metal article, the editors here will amputate the section. So just keep it cool is all I am saying. TY I'm out.. Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's all cool down for a bit

Starting with WP:TEA, my treat.

I was asked via e-mail to put some eyes on the subject at hand by Franamax as a third, outside opinion. For what it's worth, I've written a featured article on my band, so I know the ropes and I hope I can help here. I am also a fan of Whitecross.

Let's go ahead and start with a few basics:

1. WP:AGF - Assume the other person has the best intentions at heart. They are trying to do there best and, whether or not they are doing the "right thing" under Wikipedia policies and guidelines, we should respect them as individuals.
2. WP:BEBOLD and WP:OWN - In general, no one owns articles or controls their content. By the same token, you don't need to be an expert to contribute to Wikipedia and you don't need to get approval to initially add or delete anything from Wikipedia. This is not to say you shouldn't consider WP:CONSENSUS and the talk pages first.
3. WP:3RR - There is no need to revert more than three times for ANY reason. Many people go by WP:1RR. I'm personally a fan of WP:BRD.
4. WP:RS - Reliable sources are essential. Without them, content can, and should, be removed on sight unless a reliable, third party source can be found. That a station claims anything is only applicable to that station and establishes nothing in particular other than the claim.
5. WP:SOAPBOX - Advocacy has no place on WP. You are certainly welcome to represent your views, but articles must be as WP:neutral as possible. There are ways to phrase things in such a manner that are factual rather than

It is good to see everyone relatively getting along. Let's see what common ground we can find together and see what we can do to fix this problem. I'm a big fan of speaking my mind, so I'll call it like I see it:

• Armorbearer777 - I know you are trying to do the "right thing". However, you have no right to demand that another user "run any edits through established Christian Metal editors...BEFORE [they] add anything to the article." If your intent was to offer some sort of help (i.e. "to make this whole editing process run smoother, you might want to see what others say before you add it"), it didn't come across that way. I think your motives are pure here and you just want to see an accurate article on the subject. Just don't let your zeal turn into zealotry. I commend you for being up-front about your associations. You may want to read WP:SOAP
• Ihopeican143 - You probably feel like you just stepped in a hornet's nest here. I can empathize with that and have done it myself. In general, though, you did nothing wrong other than WP:3RR. The good thing about that policy is that you need to be warned about it before you can be held accountable. Everyone knows it and there shouldn't be any more edit warring.
• Everyone else - Seems to be trying to hold down the fort and not have the situation explode. Good on all of you.

So...now what?

Let's look at the section in question:

Since Christian Metal is very much a counterculture of the Christian music scene, it has never had any major corporate radio outlets, as opposed to the more accepted GMA associated Christian music formats. Christian Metal Radio can be hard to reference and even more difficult to establish notability for. Nevertheless, Christian Metal has helped Christian Metal remain culturally significant, primarily enduring the test of time through word of mouth and through the help of pioneering Christian Rock & Metal broadcasters. In spite of the lack of commercial radio support, Christian Metal broadcasters have managed to hit the airwaves on public radio, college radio, internet radio and in recent years through podcasting via the internet. As the new age of digital technology becomes more accessible to the general public, the number of Christian Metal broadcasters is steadily increasing.

1. I see zero sources. As such, it could easily be just removed, however, we need to see what can be salvaged/improved.
2. It is significantly overlinked. Who doesn't know what the internet is? Who doesn't know what commercial radio is? Why are we linking to the article?
3. I see LOTS of weasel words and claims that cannot be verified or are dubious.
4. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.

I would recommend the following rewrite and inclusion elsewhere in the article, but sourcing is a MUST.

As Christian Metal is a counterculture of the Christian music scene, few major corporate radio outlets have promoted such labels in the industry. Despite the lack of support in the commercial radio realm, the genre has enjoyed limited success in other media forms, to include public radio stations, college radio stations, internet radio stations, podcasts, and other internet alternatives.

In short, this section sounds too promotional as it is now and I think the entire article goes into WAY too much detail. I think there is a plethora of sources and material to work with and it has significant potential as an article. I think the editors involved are goldmines of information and can greatly benefit this article and Wikipedia as a whole. Just keep cool, avoid insults, and this will work out for the best. — BQZip01 — ^talk 01:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I worked very hard at this little section. I thought that I sourced it well for as out of the mainstream as Christian Matal Radio is. It is not a subject that gets allot of "print" type coverage published about it, that is why I sourced the references with "Electronic Media" according to WP:SELFPUB & WP:SOURCES. Ihopeican143 or FishermanD is obviously the host of pulse radio who seeks to self pormote. He vandalized the segment, than came back under a new IP and is obviously canvassing to rally support. He seems to have a rivalry with the other notable radio shows. This is out of hand, so since I wrote the original segment, I am taking the liberty of removing what remains. Let pulse radio write it. I need to walk away from this for a good long while. That is what I hate about WIKIPEDIA! You work hard to write something and along comes some self promoting newbie to muck it all up out of nowhere.. Sorry for the sour attidtude, but I am fed up. If anyone needs my help with another Christian Metal Radio segment, let me know.Armorbearer777 (talk) 07:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I am not an employee or intern for Metal Pulse Radio. Nor am I the owner or anything of the sorts. I know you do not believe me but I'm not here to promote any particular station. Nevertheless, the Admins have already checked the previous contribs and found the whole thing to be lacking and a bit self promoting. I'm inclined to agree with that conclusion and I think the current direction that this is going with an informed but general statement of Christian Metal Radio is a good idea. It does play a key role in Christian Metal and thus it should be noted. Having 'something' in this article about Christian Metal Radio and it's contribution to the music scene is what's ultimately important. Right now we need to get a concensus on the paragraph and references to support it. I'm certain your background would be very useful in getting these needed references. Like I said, the admins have made it very clear that all input is welcomed and I think we're closer to a good final product than you might think. Ihopeican143 (talk) 08:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The section being contested has absolutely nothing to do with Ihopeican143, there was no canvassing this article has been on my watchlist for years. I saw an edit looked at the content and saw obvious coatracking, at the time I knew nothing of the history, knew none of the editors. I later discovered the AFD's where it was decided to coatrack this into this article. I have stated that I have no problem with the paragraph as long as it is properly sourced. You keep saying the statements are sourced yet in this entire conversation and through two previous AFD's you have yet to produce a single source. Stop fighting, stop throwing around accusations, and provide us with sources. If there are no sources admit that there are no sources and move on to something else. Ridernyc (talk) 09:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Moving forward

Since the radio section has now been removed for improvement can we now establish a consensus that it should not be reinserted into the article until it has references from reliable sources. Ridernyc (talk) 14:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I hate to see it removed altogether but I understand it needs references to meet wiki guidelines. On that note.. I do see a problem this article is going to face. One thing I actually do agree with Armbear on is the fact that it doesn't get coverage in articles as far as what you're looking for. In other words, there's no book that covers the history or contributions of Christian Metal Radio for it to be referenced. However, what you do find is the results of its contributions. Meaning, you see tons and tons of bands thanking these stations and shows in the albums because of their help. Being apart of the scene you clearly see the work that these stations and shows put into helping bands get exposure and even getting stage time at major festivals. I could easily find 30 bands that have thanked Christian Metal Radio in their albums, but that's not a reference according to Wiki nor are there links. This is very difficult because we're talking about something that honestly does play a key role in the issue, but it's all very much behind the scenes and underground. Everyone in the industry knows of its importance yet no one has ever sat down and simply wrote an article on it. That's another reason why I feel it's so important to have 'something' said on this page. Nevertheless, doesn't it simply make sense that it plays a role?..reference or not? I dunno. Any ideas or suggestions on how to make it fit into Wiki-guidlines would be GREATLY appreciated. thanks Ihopeican143 (talk) 17:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

It has been removed by the original author for the purpose of re-working. I don't know which of the sources were unreliable in the original article so the rest of your statement receives a resounding mu from me. It's like asking "are you still beating your wife?" when in fact there were never any allegations of you beating your wife. There's no way to answer your question. I find your repeated hostility to the subject suspect. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

there were no sources at all so threes nos sources to comment on. Ridernyc (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The sources were in the section below it: the pages for the individual radio shows and podcasts. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

At this point I think we have pretty much come to the conclusion that the individual shows being listed is not going to happen. Right now we need the above paragraph sourced. Even discussing the possibility of listing shows is a waste of time until we find out if we can source that paragraph. I'm really starting to wonder why people seem to have a hard time understanding this, we keep going over the same basic issue over and over again. Ridernyc (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't include me in that we you mentioned. I don't think anyone has agreed to that. Discussing the listing shows is the crux of the matter. That's what I'm here to discuss. So before you continue making any more assumptions, I suggest that you stop thinking we agree with you. I say the shows are essential to the process. The fact that you don't understand this tells me you know nothing about Christian metal. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave it for others to read the statement of the three other editors that have said the statement can not be included in the article without proper sourcing. If I count correctly that would be 4 versus 2 with policy clearly on the side of the majority. I highly recommend you work on sources for the paragraph without that we can not have a list because we will be unable to have any sort of inclusion criteria. Again getting very tired of making the same statement which others have made and having it totally ignored. You have been around long enough to know the basic core polices on original research and verifiability. Ridernyc (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

And I'm getting tired of someone who obviously knows nothing about the subject matter deciding what is and isn't important to include. That would be a 2:0 consensus of editors who are knowledgeable in the infavour if including the shows. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources please, not going to say this again you know policy, this has nothing to do with knowledge of the subject it has to do with sourcing. Since you seem to not understand I will link you to the policies please read them WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS. The original research statement needs sources to be included in the article. This is a basic policy issue. The statements have been challenged by numerous editors therefore WP:BURDEN dictates that the statements need to be sourced. For two days now every time the issue of sourcing is brought up people try to change the subject and bait a fight, simply provide reliable sources and the argument ends, I fail to see why this is an issue with you. Ridernyc (talk) 21:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources for what I ask? Shows need to be included. That's a simple fact. This isn't at all about sources. It's about topic. The shows exist. There's no dispute on that point. The fact that they have helped advance the genre is evident to anyone who has listened to more than a few interviews of bands on these shows or podcasts. There are no written sources that would meet WP:V so does that mean the shows are not valuable? Not in the least. Would you like me to recount private conversations? Can't. WP:V doesn't allow that either. Would you like me to write an article or a book, have it published by a reputable publisher that states that shows helped? Would that satisfy you? Until then we can state that shows have helped, point to the on-line archives of the podcasts and tell you to listen. You'll have your answer. You still don't know the subject matter and it's still annoying that you're interfering in the subject. It's not about Wikipedia any longer. It's about you saying something and not getting to have your way. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll let others deal with you because I'm not going over this again there is a very clear, rational, and detailed explanation left by another editor at the beginning of the previous section [1]. Ridernyc (talk) 21:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

And while you're at it, could you please provide only positive comments? I understand that you're not a subject-matter expert and you've inserted yourself into this debate for some reason, but you're not helping matters by making statements that have not gained consensus. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• FYI - I've been advised to appologize to the editors involved in this discussion. My behavior, nor my implications were in any way endorsed by The Full Armor of God Broadcast, Full Armor of God Ministries or by Bro Kuba. I have been asked by Full Armor of God Ministries to post this formal appology and step away from this discussion. In my own defence, all of the information that I put into the original section was gathered first hand from speaking and emailing each station, show and DJ mentioned. For those who will be continueing to work on this segment, I strongly feel that the best way to refference Christian Metal Radio is with "Electronic Media Sources" according to WP:SELFPUB & WP:SOURCES policy. Remeber the radio stations, shows & DJs are in actuality sourcing Christian Metal not themselves. Thank You and Be Blessed.Armorbearer777 (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

There has never been an issue with the sources that prove a given station or show exists. The problems are 1) in what context is this information to be presented?; and 2) by what criteria are specific stations/shows/DJs considered for listing? In order to solve #2, it's necessary to first solve #1. There's where we run into a problem, as several editors have pointed out, there are no sources to support the introductory wording, which makes it original research. It's almost certainly true, but "true" is not good enough. Even a source that says "listen to this podcast at 5:27 in" would help to confirm your wording. Or maybe just saying "there are many Christian metal radio shows" and listing a few prominent examples might do it. The problem is when you draw conclusions, that's where you need a source. We don't conclude here, we just report and summarize. Franamax (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Not quite sure what you mean by a problem with creating a context. Armorbearer777's presentation was, in my opinion, adequate. It was also my understanding that the presentation was the problem. He had an introductory paragraph and a listing of some key shows and podcasts. The problem, as I understand it, was that the listing was too long and focused too much on the individual programmes. I think that if we can have an indication of how radio programmes assisted, and continue to assist, with the promotion of Christian metal and a brief listing of a few key shows (with references) that it would not be excessive and meet the needs of the majority of editors. Some will feel that any listing of programmes will constitute a link farm, others will want more elaborate information on the shows. The list could simply be in prose or bullet-form. I think that "subscribe to this podcast at" would break WP:ELNO, and promoting any individual show would be similar. So I think the form is what we have to come up with. Too bad that Armorbearer777 has stepped back from editing because I think he has the best understanding of the topic. I was just an assistant to DJ of an early Christian rock and metal show and have not kept-up on modern shows at all. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

What you call an introductory paragraph is what I meant by creating a context, the bit that explains why the information is there. Statements like "there are a number of broadcast and on-line offerings" IMO pass WP:V because you can just do a Google search. Statements like "...underground..." are very difficult to work with, especially when one happens to be a member of that scene. A statement on the impact of radio, yes, that's what is needed if it can be sourced somewhere, otherwise it has to be very bland. You're right about the principles for the listing, especially about putting it in prose. And yes, it's unfortunate that Armorbearer777 is running into difficulties, but luckily we have all the CC-BY-SA contributions they have made, which can be reused with proper attribution in the edit summary. Unfortunately also, I have to keep my admin hat on for now so I don't want to make actual suggestions for wording yet. Franamax (talk) 00:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Franamax, I understand you need to maintain a certain amount of digression while wearing the admin 'hat' but can you at least point out why this post is not adequate enough for a contrib? "Since Christian Metal is very much a counterculture of the Christian music scene, it has never had much major corporate radio outlets, as opposed to the more accepted GMA associated Christian music formats. Nevertheless, one major factor in establishing and maintaining Christian Metal’s significance has been through the help of independent Christian Rock & Metal radio. In spite of the lack of commercial radio support, Christian Metal broadcasters have managed to hit the airwaves on public radio, college radio, internet radio and in recent years through pod-casting via the internet. As the new age of digital technology becomes more accessible to the general public, the impact of Christian Metal Radio continues to steadily increase." Wouldn't a list of, at very least, Christian metal radio stations that air these shows and style of music be the reference support needed for that contrib? I'm not understanding why this this does not meet the requirements. There is a statement being made and there can be stations listed to show it's ongoing contribution to the Christian Metal Scene to support the claim. Thanks. Ihopeican143 (talk) 04:14, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Well just to take two, who says CMR is "very much a counterculture" and what exact culture is it counter to? And how do I know (or you for that matter) that the "impact of [CMR] continues to steadily increase"? What if I decide to change it to say "steadily decrease"? My version would be just as verifiably true as yours, right? Why not say it's nowhere near as good as it was in the old days? That's why we end up looking to the guidelines to learn how other people have handled such problems in the past. Franamax (talk) 04:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but it's not saying that Christian Metal RADIO is a counterculture. The first line say's that Christian Metal is a counterculture, which has already been established and referenced throughout the entire article. As to what culture it counters the answer is also in the first line... I'll post the first line again: "Since Christian Metal is very much a counterculture of the Christian music scene, it has never had much major corporate radio outlets,...etc etc..". Does that make a little more sense as to what the article is saying? As for it "increasing".. I see your point and will have to find evidence for that.. thanks. Ihopeican143 (talk) 07:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about the first sentence, I realized that as I was falling asleep last night, it's metal that is the counterculture, not metal radio. :) Should be either "many major" or "much corporate radio exposure" I think. As for a source, I'm thinking one might not be needed, it seems a plausibly true statement not likely to be challenged (unless someone comes up with sources for corporate radio exposure, in which case you'll have more stations to tune in :).

The third sentence looks OK except "hit the airwaves" is a little flowery for an encyclopedia. Presumably when the specific examples are added there will be sources proving public, college and podcast stations. Second sentence I'm still thinking about, it's pretty self-evident that radio has a huge impact on disseminaation of any kind of music. A source with an artist stating "if it wasn't for independent radio, we wouldn't be here" would maybe be good there. Franamax (talk) 19:51, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Franamax, you guys seem to be on the right track here. Keep up the good work all! — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Amazing work Armorbearer777! I will have to look at this much more closely when time permits, but I think this addresses the concerns that were raised while keeping the information in the article. Once again, thanks for the patient, diligent work. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Metal Mass

Perhaps the Metal Mass should be discussed in this article. Anyone like to add it in?--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead. It seems appropriate. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm working on a section titled "Evangelistic goals, sosiology and subculture" where I think it fits fine. I try to add it soon.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, now it's mentioned.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Mono Vs Stereo

Would anyone object to removing Mono Vs Stereo from the Record Labels section? It used to have some Metal bands, but all of those bands have left the label, and the only artist signed to the label now is Relient K. It just doesn't seem to fit anymore.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Spencerz (talk; contributions) 01:38, 10 March, 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, the whole list of record labels is redundant, some of them could be mentioned in the prose. Same with the Christian metal radio section. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to remove the label. Removing the section is up for another discussion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of updated Theocracy information

Being entirely new to Wikipedia etiquette, I was not aware of this discussion page and the need to float requests to the main page editors prior to making a change until I happened to click the discussion tab...so, I'm going to ask for permission after the fact. The information on the band Theocracy is woefully out of date (seven years, to be exact), so I included a sentence indicating that Theocracy has expanded to a full band and released a new album (most of the other bands in the power metal section have extensive discography listings). Premsta (talk) 05:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Good news! Up-to-date information is always useful! You don't have to float anything past editors prior to making a change. However, if a situation arises where you are about to add controversial information, or someone keeps deleting your information and you need some space to discuss your position, an article's talk page is the place to go. Thanks again for making Wikipedia a better place. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

This is not a genre

Christian metal is not a genre! It's just different other kinds of metal with a christian message! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.206.150.123 (talk) 11:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Seconded. MisplacedFate1313 (talk) 06:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Will need wider discussion within the relevant WikiProject. Link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Christian_music/Structure#More_about_genres 143.92.1.33 (talk) 01:43, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Won't need any discussion. It is a genre as is evidenced by the lack of discussion in this thread and the continued changes in the article over the same time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

A Time-line of the Most Influential Christian Metal Albums of This Period

The section does appear to be WP:OR, but the question is, should it be removed entirely, created based on some criteria, expanded using some criteria and moved into a separate section, or something other? I think commenting it out should be avoided without discussion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion some of the list, with sources, could be edited to prose, and then it could be merged with the alternative metal section, which now focuses too much on industrial metal anyway.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 22:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree this section needs some editing. I've shortened the title of the section to "Influential Albums", the Christian Metal part should be implied from the article, and the "timeline" or "of this period" parts aren't really necessary. The list should be converted to prose if possible. I've also edited some of the content for grammar. -- GateKeeper ^(talk) @ 06:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

After more review, I've decided to remove it (see section below). Its the only section of the article which does not conform to GA status. It needs to be editing before being included. -- GateKeeper ^(talk) @ 06:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, why start at 1994? We have 1971's Gospel Hard Rock by Agape. Then in 1978 the first metal on a major label Awaiting Yuor Reply from Resurrection Band. Their next two albums were also influential as was 1984's D.M.Z. That was the year Stryper released The Yellow and Black Attack and their next two albums were certainly top-sellers. Darrell Mansfield released Revelation in 1985 that had several Christian rock chart-topping songs despite being a metal album. We have Whitecross releasing several albums in the late 80s and early 90s. Jerusalem (Swedish band), more hard rock than metal though. Bloodgood had some milestone releases. All of these before the artificial 1994 P.O.D. album. If we're creating a prose section, all of these bands must be mentioned. Shout and Ken Tamplin's brand of hair metal might also deserve a nod as would Petra who, although being a rock band, certainly influenced a lot of harder bands who followed, at least according to interviews I've heard on the Full Armor of God pordcast. The real question is what criteria marks any of these albums as influential? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Influential albums

The turn of the millennium saw the the influence of the nu metal movement on Christian metal. Bands such as Living Sacrifice, Project 86, P.O.D., Disciple, Embodyment, and Blindside set the standard for hard Christian music. The Cornerstone Festival, Solid State Records, HM Magazine, and Godcore.com all played a huge role in spreading Christian metal during this period. The term “Christian metal” wasn’t commonly used to describe these bands, going by either “hardcore” or “Christian hardcore.” After that, people started applying heavy metal subgenres to Christian metal bands, such as “metalcore.”

• 1994 - P.O.D. – Snuff the Punk
• 1996 - P.O.D. – Brown
• 1997 - Living Sacrifice – Reborn
• 1997 - Blindside – Self-Titled
• 1998 - Eso-Charis – Self-Titled
• 1998 - Project 86 – Self-Titled
• 1999 - Hopesfall – The Frailty of Words
• 1999 - P.O.D. – The Fundamental Elements of Southtown
• 1999 - Disciple – This Might Sting A Little
• 1999 - Stavesacre – Speakeasy
• 2000 - Living Sacrifice – The Hammering Process
• 2000 - Embodyment – The Narrow Scope of Things
• 2000 - Blindside – A Thought Crushed My Mind

• 2000 - Project 86 – Drawing Black Lines
• 2000 - Society’s Finest – The Journey…So Far
• 2001 - Embodyment – Hold Your Breath
• 2001 - Luti-Kriss – Throwing Myself
• 2001 - P.O.D. – Satellite
• 2001 - As I Lay Dying – Beneath the Encasing of Ashes
• 2001 - Disciple – By God
• 2001 - East West – The Light In Guinevere’s Garden
• 2001 - Sinai Beach – Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing
• 2001 - Skillet – Alien Youth
• 2001 - Thousand Foot Krutch – Set It Off
• 2002 - Living Sacrifice – Conceived In Fire
• 2002 - Demon Hunter – Self-Titled

• 2002 - Dead Poetic – Four Wall Blackmail
• 2002 - Stavesacre – (stavzaker)
• 2003 - P.O.D. – Payable On Death
• 2003 - Extol – Synergy
• 2003 - Disciple – Back Again
• 2003 - East West – Vintage
• 2003 - Sinai Beach – When Breath Escapes
• 2003 - Soul Embraced – Immune
• 2003 - Thousand Foot Krutch – Phenomenon
• 2004 - Demon Hunter – Summer of Darkness
• 2004 - Emery – The Weak’s End
• 2004 - Mortal Treason – A Call to the Martyrs
• 2006 - P.O.D. – Testify
• 2010 – Living Sacrifice – The Infinite Order

White Metal

It was infrequently called "white metal" but that term was used. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems to turn up a lot in the literature.--SabreBD (talk) 19:15, 12 July 2010 (UTC)wha

Sure. Who wants to keep writing "Christian metal". But in common usage, it was just an alternate name. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Walter, I think I've lost the thread of this, what exactly are you arguing for inclusion as sometimes used alternative? Because I have no problem with that as it seems to be what the sources suggest.--SabreBD (talk) 19:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no problems with the inclusion of the term. The problem is the article indicated that it was called white metal. The phrasing was such that it made it seem as though it was known exclusively as white metal, which is not the case. Christian metal would be the primary term. White metal would be a secondary term. Unblack metal came even later—in the 90s I believe. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:41, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

OK I understand where you are coming from. We are in total agreement. It is normal to note major alternatives in the lede, but I see no evidence of migration from one term to another.--SabreBD (talk) 06:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Brian "Head" Welch, Ex-Guitarist of Korn!!??

I can't believed he's not even mentioned on the article! He is one of the most prominent examples of the topic. Became a Christian and left Korn. Now he plays Christian metal. Should definitely be added there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.53.197.135 (talk) 05:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think he's one of the most prominent examples of the topic. He has released one album since his conversion and is about to release a second. The album did not sell well. However, he should be mentioned. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Welch is back with Korn. Korn is not a Christian band. AngelsExist88 (talk) 15:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

But his side project still is definitely Christian metal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:42, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Christianity and metal music

After reading this Telegraph.co.uk article (link) I thought it would be interesting to write a short section titled "Christianity and metal music" for this article. That is, a bit more comprehensive background information on the relationship between metal and Christianity, why metal often attacks Christianity and other way around. Something that is covered in this blog without the POV (link) "Old Testament bible stories inspire hundreds of metal songs." The cleric in that first article states that “Much of metal’s fascination with Satan or evil is play-acting, driven by a desire to shock. Metal invites Christianity to be less afraid of wildness and the ridiculous.” What do you think? Is this stuff actually already apparent in the article?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable sources?

The 'unreliable sources' in this article is an issue that was brought up when it was nominated for a featured article two years a go. It appears that there are still no third party books or complete articles about the History of Christian metal, the section with currently most of the first party sources, although it has plenty of Allmusic references. However, the other sections have quite reliable sources by general music press and secular scholars.

Is the tag really necessary? What should be done? Remove all the first party references and info? The history section would end up being rather short, which is not a bad thing, but what options are there? With a quick google search, it appears some articles have clearly used this wikipage or its soures for reference, such as one on examiner.com which is blacklisted by wikipedia--Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to step into a hornets nest. I actually did not notice that there were third party sources, I put the tag up because I saw some references to webzines that have been deemed unreliable. While personally feel that they are accurate, I have learned through trial and error that they are considered unreliable. So what to do? I'm not sure. I will try to get around to cleaning everything up myself, but that might take a while. If the consensus here is that the tag is unnecessary, someone can feel free to remove it.--3family6 (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

^It's ok, thanks for clearing that up. Let's leave the tag for a while and see if it attracts some specialist to contribute to this article as The Christian metal WikiProject has been quite dead since 2008. It's true that whenever possible, reliable third party sources should be used. The webzine references aren't very reliable, yeah, should be avoided. Feel free to clean up the article if you wish. What sources in particular? Point them out and I'll remove them. There are almost 200 sources so it's getting difficult to navigate...--Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. Some of the sources I noticed were several by Tartarean Desire (refs 17, 105 and 6, 116). There also a bunch by TheWhippingPost, which I think would be unreliable unless the site was run by an author or musician. There might be some others that I do not know about. With the Metal for Jesus! references, I am trying to determine if Jonsson is a reliable source, which I think he is.

I am hoping to put a lot of work into a lot of Christian metal pages as my college semester has ended, so I might be able to find some better sources.

Thanks,

--3family6 (talk) 02:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The main reason I put the tag up is what you mentioned above, that maybe someone will try to improve the article.--3family6 (talk) 13:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again, I took the time to remove 19,578 kilobits worth of redundancy and unreliable sources. The Whipping Post and The Metal for Jesus may be reliable from the scene's point of view but not from Wikipedia's perspective. I believe they should either be removed or replaced with reliable sources. What about No Life 'til Metal, reliable or not?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 18:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow, you've done quite a bit. I hope I do not look like I am trying to shift all of the grunt work on someone else, right now I'm just working on sourcing the list of Christian metal bands. As to No Life 'til Metal, I am not sure. Scott Waters is the vocalist of Ultimatum and the reunion band Once Dead which gives him some authority, but his site does not have other editors with oversight. I guess what is important is media coverage, and right now I don't really know one way or the other. I have been using him as a back up source for the list of Christian metal bands as I think he is a reliable source.

Thanks for putting in this hard work,

--3family6 (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for your hard work. I have no opinion on what would and wouldn't constitute a WP:RS in this area. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome, though I have not done much (yet!). Azure Shrieker and Blackmetalbaz deserve the thanks.--3family6 (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It was about time to fix this anyway. The article got out of hands with name-dropping and original research -- wikiarticles are meant to be general overviews, not minibooks. Do you see something in the article that appear unreliable or unnecessary?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 12:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I asked about three major sources to see if they pass WP:RS, and the results are that Jesus Freak Hideout is reliable, No Life 'til Metal is not reliable, and Metal for Jesus! might be reliable, depending on what Jonsson's role was in the Metal Bible project. The (still ongoing?) discussion can be seen here:[2] --3family6 (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 17:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

@Azure Shrieker it seems there still is work to do. At least source 61 seems to me a self-published personal website, and I am very unsure if using that meets wikipedia standards. 46.15.65.138 (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I have done some snooping around, and I have found some info that can help in sourcing this article. First source: TheWhippingPost This source should be reliable because the creator, Matt Morrow, is a regular contributor to HM Magazine, and therefore qualifies as having a work in the relevant field published by a reliable third-party. Examples: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. Second source: Metal for Jesus! (again!) Jonsson's work on The Metal Bible probably does not count because it appears that his ministry is the publisher/distributor. However, he has authored concert reviews published by HM Magazine [9], [10]. This should qualify him as a reliable source. Third source: JesusMetal This one I am not sure about. What could qualify this website is that the creator has recently started up a print magazine called Untombed Magazine. What I am not sure about is whether the publisher, Divinemetaldistro.com, is a reliable third-party source. Hope this helps out, --3family6 (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It should, but HM magazine casts a very wide net as far as who is and isn't considered Christian. For instance, U2 made No. 1 on their top 100 Christian rock albums of all time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed that about HM Magazine as well, but this does not change its status as a reliable source, and as a reliable source, a regular journalist for the magazine can be considered reliable.--3family6 (talk) 00:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Clarification: HM may not always be accurate about whether a band is Christian, and it is important to use other sources as well if showing that a band is Christian. But in terms of overall reliability, it meets the criteria, which can qualify a journalist for the magazine as a reliable source as well.--3family6 (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Update: Metal for Jesus! should be reliable because in addition to Jonsson writing for HM Magazine, his site has received academic coverage: [11], [12] As long as the site is not used in band biographies, it should be okay.--3family6 (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Heh, so it was a mistake to remove them... The interesting thing is, also both this Wikipedia article and the Finnish version have received academic coverage by the same scholar and approved for PhD. The chapters on the history of Christian metal cite the wikipage urls several times.[13] Perhaps they are seen quite reliable then (or it was a compromise simply because there are not many sources available), as usually Wikiarticles aren't accepted as sources in school papers.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Is that source already used in the article? If not, it could be a treasure trove for this page, and may be even good enough for an offshoot page (maybe about the Scandinavian Christian metal movement?). Nice work. That is interesting how he sourced Wikipedia. I have found that many college professors at my college allow Wikipedia sources, if used appropriately.--3family6 (talk) 18:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No, it is not used. Only the overview from the back cover. I did not know it was available as a pdf until now. A year a go I saw it as a print format in some online store for some 40-50 euros which was a bit too much then. Interesting that Wikipedia is accepted by college professors, though the peer review standard here did get very high during the last couple of years, and I have seen quite a few university students speak highly of English Wikipedia. Anyways, there's 300 pages worth of material to improve this page. And that offshoot page suggestion is excellent. I haven't yet read the whole book though. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Sections I plan to work on shortly

After I am done red-adding genres to the list of Christian metal bands page, I plan to work over here on expanding the Christian alternative metal scene, add a section on the West Coast scene, particularly California, and also add to and create new sections dealing with progressive and symphonic metal. I will probably do some other general fixes as well. _{(How did I get into this? I don't know that much about the Christian metal movement. But I guess all I need is good sources?)} --3family6 (talk) 13:14, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Um, didn't we just agree to let experts have a look at this? Some proverb went something like "Do not get involved in anything you are not familiar with". Only write about something you know of. Otherwise you would do the same mistake I did when extending this article. Wrong bands got credit simply because the writer had no insight on the matter. Seriously, you don't have get involved into this, you'll just ruin your college. Wikipedia grew incredibly large, the fifth most visited in Internet, so readers deserve to read articles written by people who are specialists of their area - close to 20,000 people read this article every month! [14]. I have learned that good intent is not enough - insight is important. The smartest thing to do now is to remove rest of the unreliable material and then consider carefully, maybe change the tag into "re-write requested" for example. In my opinion, before contributing more material to this article, one should at least check out some of the thesis' and books by Luhr, Moberg, Weinstein, Brown, and Khan-Harris. Oh, and thanks for the work on the List article, appreciated.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 17:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know that there was an agreement to leave it alone until an expert looks at the subject, but now that I know that, I will not do anything major with the article. Thank you for helping me out here, and you're welcome about the List article.

Thanks,

--3family6 (talk) 21:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Who agreed and where? Which experts are you planning on enlisting in reviewing the article? Am I missing something here? I admit I didn't read all of the discussion on the previous section. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually it was about the tag, and technically it wasn't an agreement, sorry, my bad :> Just thoughts, maybe contact some established scene figures if they're interested. That's it. Carry on.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 20:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Got it! Thanks for the clarification. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thank you Azure for clearing that up. I'll probably put up an "expert needed" tag on the page, maybe we can get someone. There are some good articles on Cross Rhythms that span almost two decades of Christian metal, so those could prove to be useful. I will try to check out the works that were suggested above as well.--3family6 (talk) 23:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

This whole discussion was probably irrelevant, at least for a while, as I do not have time to work on this page.--3family6 (talk) 00:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

air-1

I'm removing air-1 from the radio section as they do not have any programing set apart for christian metal as stated in the article. http://www.air1.com/Connect/Help.aspx Can'thinkofscreename (talk) 21:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Reduced article size

Nice work, Azure Shrieker. Your removing the large amount coverage on Trouble (based off a reference!) in the article seems to have brought the size down considerably. While the article might still be too long, that certainly helped.--3family6 (talk) 02:01, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, ideally the article lentgh should not be much over 30 kb and most certainly not 100kb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Length). Although this is not a very technical subject which allows longer articles. Check the aforementioned thesis' pages 126-127 to understand why I removed the band.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how one would go about this, but it might be interesting to add something about the discussion of this Wikipedia article itself. That thesis is a goldmine for info, as soon as this college semester is over I might help you sift through it. (Its reference of several Christian metal websites might help establish them as reliable sources as well).--3family6 (talk) 17:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Christian metalcore?

Christian metalcore is the greatest movement of Christian metal, should have a section about this. MetalBrasil (talk) 01:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about greatest, but there are a few bands. Care to write something about it? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It's the greatest in terms of sales and popularity for Christian metal since Stryper in the 80s, but there are other measures of greatness other than sales figures. I definitely think that the mention of metalcore in this article should definitely be expanded, and maybe even have an article itself. The big thing though is that we need sources, but there must be some that discuss the emergence of Christian metalcore. If we can find some, then we can go somewhere.--3family6 (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Heavy metal subgenres: Is Christian metal really a genre?

There is a discussion going on with the heavy metal subgenres page over whether Christian metal is actually a genre. Input would be appreciated.--3family6 (talk) 23:54, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It really shouldn't be. Thats like calling a band focusing on politics "Political metal".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Impendingdoom240 (talk • contribs) 01:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

There's political hip hop, but it's not the same in any way. There is an industry that calls itself "Christian metal". Tell them to stop. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah I'll go to the music industry and say "pls stop labeling bands with christian themes christian metal thank you" and I'm sure they'll listen to me. My point still stands though, just because they focus on a certain lyrical theme doesn't mean they're a completely different genre. Abominable Putridity has biology themes, guess they're science metal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Impendingdoom240 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. That's not what I said you should do, but you seem to want to be outrageous so I suspect you're being facetious, in everything you write. 06:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. You said, and I quote, "Tell them to stop.". Or am I mistaken? I suspect you're trolling, in a way which isn't even remotely humorous. In what way am I being facetious? Literally no humor in anything I said was used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Impendingdoom240 (talk • contribs) 06:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. What I wrote was

The industry calls itself "Christian metal". There are two steps between what I wrote and what you wrote. Labels, such as Tooth & Nail sign bands. They distribute music to specific retailers. The media that reviews this music decides how to label the bands. The labels have a small hand in that. They will often coax the writers to use specific terms that they think will help the album sell or not. If a band can't wear the label, they have a choice of not accepting it. If the writers or labels don't want to assign the label, they don't have to. No one is holding a gun to any of the parties. There's a reason it's used. Your facile misunderstanding aside, many bands wear the label with pride. It's not lyrical themes, it's who the people are.

When awards are then handed-out to those in the industry, I don't see bands who don't want to be part of the industry running the other way. Again, still not about lyrical themes.

The genre exists. There's nothing you can do about it. Bands are never forced to wear the tag. The rest is your attempt at trolling. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposed merge of unblack metal

Okay, an editor has proposed merging unblack metal with this article, but they have not provided any rationale for this merger. I personally strongly oppose this merger, as the unblack metal article is very well sourced, and merging it with this article would close to double the size of this article.--3family6 (talk) 00:32, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

The 'Unblack metal' section could be cut down enormously to reflect its actual notability: two bands, one of which only released only one album as a parody of the actual black metal scene, as opposed to the tens of thousands and more 'secular' black metal bands. Unblack metal may be a part of the wider Christian metal scene but has no real significance in its own right and doesn't warrant more than the tiniest footnote on the black metal page either. But seeing as much more relevant sub-genres (DSBM, atmospheric black metal, Cascadian black metal, etc.) aren't, I don't see why wikipedia needs to include non-notable 'opposing views' merely to pander to christian propaganda. Cdh1984 (talk) 11:39, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

First, there are more than just two notable "un"black metal bands (eg., Extol, Frosthardr, Vaakevandring, Admonish, etc.). But what is more important is the notability of unblack metal itself. That is a legitimate concern, so I did some digging on the article, and I found that in the timeline, there actually are hardly any references that discuss unblack metal itself. But in the "controversies" section, everything is very well sourced, and many of the references discuss black metal itself, not just the bands. In its current state, the timeline of the article could be shrunk, but the subject as a whole is very notable, and definitely is more than just foot-note worthy. There still is too much notable content to really merge the articles without significantly adding to the size of the Christian metal article, and that article is already a too long. I will try to improve the notability of the timeline of unblack metal though.--3family6 (talk) 12:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for being sensible about this. I'm still not convinced Unblack metal is significant enough to need its own article. At the moment it looks like an attempt to present the Christian version as being the equal and opposite to non-Christian black metal, when really it isn't. I admit I can't say how significant it is to the Christian metal but to black metal and extreme metal as a whole it is very insignificant. A count of the relative number of listeners (on last.fm, for example) of Christian black metal bands and non-Christian black metal would demonstrate this. I wish I was able to count the number of purely DSBM projects (I'm sure they would number in the thousands) compared to Christian BM bands. Cdh1984 (talk) 16:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This has come up before, and the article was cut down in size. There definitely is enough content to warrant its own article, but unless some more sources can be found, I think that it could potentially be cut further. I will say that a similar size to the black metal article is not a reason for cutting it down, but notability is.--3family6 (talk) 18:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Horde wasn't a parody, and there are more than two notable bands. Your ignorance is really showing.Impendingdoom240 (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Current state?

The history section has no mention about the post-2006 or post-financial crisis scene. What do you think about adding that, for a while, Steve Rowe of Mortification has stated that Christian metal records labels are closing down, the scene is getting even smaller ("There is not even a “Christian” Metal Scene here (Australia) anymore"), many musicians are falling away from faith, the record sales are scarse because of illegal downloading, and Christianity is not very popular these days (secular and Christian bands seldom play together anymore). [15] Nordic festival is no more. Signs of certain inactivity? (excluding the 'core bands and some major names).--Azure Shrieker (talk) 18:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

If there is some type of reliable coverage, then go ahead.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:17, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I know this is way later than this original discussion, but: The Solid State roster seems to be going strong. I wouldn't exclude the 'core bands, they seem to be the new wave. But even excluding them, I think may be happening is that the scene is merging with the mainstream.--¿3family6 _contribs 11:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Too many boxes

The article currently has a very large amount of sound clips, which would probably contravene Wikipedia:Non-free content and create a problem "sandwiching" text between those and the picture (see WP:IMAGE). Something has to give.--SabreBD (talk) 11:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

A lot of those sound clips should go. Granted, the heavy metal article has 8, but it has a lot more content. Interestingly, the rock music article has none.--¿3family6 _contribs 11:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Slimming the Controversy section.

Controversy sections aren't highly regarded within the scope of Wikipedia, so I've taken the charge to slim it down a bit, without deleting information and keeping it on track. The controversies will stay, but I'm slimming it down to the bare essentials, as to not inflate the section. I am, however, deleting Kerry King's statement. I find that it's simply not having to do with actual controversy but his general distaste for the Christian metal scene. 98.198.85.83 (talk) 01:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Why?

Christian Metal is absolutely NOT a musical subgenre. Genres are not based on lyrical themes. If this exists as a wikipedia page then we might as well have 'Islamic Metal', 'Jewish Metal', 'Hindu Metal' 'Buddhist Metal' and even 'Atheist Metal'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk • contribs) 08:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. There are radio formats for this non-genre. There are awards for this non-format. There are magazines, zines and online sites that publish exclusively for this genre. Major music publications consider it to be a genre. They do not have one for the additional categories or articles you have suggested. I think we'll trust them over your opinion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:24, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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Essential metal albums?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_metal&curid=211913&diff=751360162&oldid=751279192 Is TeamRock or MetalHammer a recognized source for what constitutes Christian metal? I'm not sure who William Boyd is, but the site does not list its editorial policy nor its staff so I would argue that isn't a RS. One of your favourite sources, HM, put out a list in 2010 (https://web.archive.org/web/20120212190202/http://www.hmmagazine.com/2010/07/top-100-christian-rock-albums-of-all-time) All but two of your albums appear there. The bands appear there, but that list thinks that there are better albums. But, we don't really need to add lists here as was so eloquently stated. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:25, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Metal Hammer is one of the classic heavy metal magazines - it absolutely is reliable. I don't think we need a table of "essential albums," though.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Assuming you have enough sources, you can create a list of Christian metal albums as a new article. Dimadick (talk) 09:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Heavy metal music and Christianity

Is the section "Heavy metal music and Christianity" in Background relevant to this article? It has many citation needed tags and seems to be more about metal that is against Christianity. I believe this is completely different for Christian metal is genre we have many bands listed in List of Christian metal bands with all entries referenced. Will it be a problem to remove this section?Agamede (talk) 00:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

It does discuss why Evangelical congregations had (have) a hard time accepting the genre. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:30, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

My Edit

Regarding my edit, I used terminology directly from the source. I felt phrases from the source were more fitting than the word positive (Flagrant hysterical curious (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2019 (UTC))

I am considering this feedback option and would appreciate any feedback about my edit and/or if something like the aforementioned "third option" described seems pertinent to this disagreement. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagrant hysterical curious (talk • contribs) 22:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Flagrant hysterical curious: I don't think that's necessary. I am watching the page and you have not contacted the editor who reverted you to discuss. Try that first. If they do not respond a few days after the ping, feel free to restore the wording. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• The words may have been from the surce, but they are not marked as such, whcih puts them in Wikipedia's voice, which is clearly not acceptable. If we are to quote the source, quote marks must be used, or some other indicator ("so-called" perhaps) DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 05:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:DESiegel. To me, they were marked by the words "Moberg states" (Flagrant hysterical curious (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC))

Flagrant hysterical curious if the wors were a quotation, then they need to be explicitly marked as such with quotation marks or mthe use of <blockquote>...</blockquote> tags. See Wikipedia:Quotation. If it is na paraphrase, it needs to avoid being close enough to be a copyright infringement. I take it that the exact section of the source intended in the passage on p428, which reads; The most important and easily recognizable discourses are those mentioned earlier: Christian metal as an alternative form of religious expression and identity, as a legitimate form of religious expression, as an effective means of evangelism and fighting and standing up for the Christian faith, and as a positive alternative to secular metal. Note that the term "non-satanic" does not appear in this passage, nor indeed in the entire source article as far as i can determine. Thus that term is in Wikipedia's voice. I would add that with the source being a 9 page article in a longer conference proceedings, and since the source is paginated, specifing the exat page which is being referenced would be a good thing. If the different uses of this source use different pages, {{rp}} can be used to indicate this. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:20, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Quotations do not need to use blockquote annotation, they can simply use quote marks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

NFCC and a general article

It's difficult to justify NFCC for an article like this, because it is possible to create and freely license Christian metal music ("No free equivalent" criterion). Regardless, the amount of non-free content in the previous version was clearly excessive because of "Minimal usage" requirement. (t · c) buidhe 21:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Buidhe: For the record, I asked the editor to explain why the media links were removed a bit more clearly. NFCC is Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:13, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Totally forgot

You forgot some of the most important bands from 90s like Unashamed and focal point and Unashamed these guys were really important part of the scene 2600:1700:24D0:8160:FD2D:E270:10BF:B844 (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have a problem with the use of "white metal" here

The term "white metal" is usually just used to describe unblack metal. 76.137.118.7 (talk) 16:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC)