Talk:Lauburu

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Heraldry and vexillology

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"can symoblize" is weasly. does it, or does it not, in Basque folklore? (reference?) if it does, it should be mentioned on sauwastika, if not, deleted. dab (ᛏ) 20:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

La marquesa de Santa Cruz

Goya's La marquesa de Santa Cruz (hand-painted reproduction) features a lauburu as decoration of the lyre. --Error 00:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Link to a geocities site with unsourced opinions

Error just added a link to a geocities site with quite odd opinions on the Labarum and Lauburu. Totally unsourced ("various authors claim" - who?) and assuming that the Cantabri were Celtic (what is under question). I'm for removing it, as it wouldn't qualify even for Wikipedia standards.

Also, while the Lauburu itself could well be a Celtic (or otherwse Indo-European) import (this is arguable, as many non-IE peoples have used and use svastikas) it doesn't seem to have any simmilarity at all with the Labarum, that has 6 "heads" (it would be a "seiburu") and is written with Greek letters. If Celts were at the origin of both Lauburu and Labarum, as the linked article claims, why does it has such a clear Basque name and not a Celtic one? It's mad. --Sugaar 08:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find the Geocities page better sourced than this article.

Are we sure that the Roman labarum has always been shaped as a Chi-Rho? Could it be that Constantine reshaped it for some reason? Note that it is not sure that Constantine was a Christian.

About the etymology of labarum, it is not clear. The Geocities page proposes a Celtic one that I cannot judge. About the etymology of lauburu, do you know about folk etymology? For example, island has a non-etymological silent s because English erudites believed it came from insula, but it is of Germanic origin. For a Spanish example, trasportín is "clearly" from transportar but it really comes from traspuntín, hence from Italian strapontino. I find quite reasonable that lauburu is a misinterpretation of labarum at some moment in history.

--Error 02:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Error: the article you linked has not a single source or reference. The closest to that is vague references to "several authors" and things like that. Anyone can build a geocities page easily, it has no more validity than any opinion I could say here, specially if it's not sourced.

As for my opinion (self research as the geocities site), I think that labarum, labrys and labyrinth could be connected with lava (volcanic material) and Basque laba (oven), as per a pre-IE Mediterranean substratum associated with bronze metalurgy possibly (obviously Basques recieved metalurgy from the Mediterranean, via Iberian civilizations like Los Millares, El Argar and Vila Nova de São Pedro and other, more or less related, less important cultures, so there's no surprise in that).

But lauburu doesn't follow that ethymology, it's plain and clear: lau buru: for heads, summits or ends. --Sugaar 16:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Geocities page mentions Tertullian (Apologetycum, Pars IV, Capitulum XVI, 8; Ad Nationes, I, 12), Minutius Felix (Octavius, XXIX), Codex Theodosianus, C.H. Daremberg, E. Saglio, Aurelius Prudentius (Contra Symmachum, Lib. I, 461-466, 486-488), Eusebius (Vita Constantini, Lib. I), Montes de Neira, Eduardo Peralta Labrador, Duzémil, Silius Italicus, Elianus, Enrique Flórez, Pío Baroja, Sabino Arana (Euzkadi, 1).

Corominas takes Spanish lava from Italian, and then from Neapolitan lave < Latin labes ("fall"). Compare "collapse".

--Error 21:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have added references to Auñamendi. Note that there still no clear reference for Basco-Cantabrism but for Fidel Fita. --Error 22:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The author considers the mentioned theories very doubtful himself:

Como conclusión a todo esto, podemos afirmar que la moderna reconstrucción del lábaro cántabro no posee las pruebas documentales suficientes para poder hacer esta identificación mas allá de cualquier duda.

He also goes on disqualifying the native origin of the Lauburu, despite being documented since the 16th century (a time when the Romantic theories of Xaho were not yet en vogue).

He protests the Vasco-Cantabrian connection despite the evidence of Cantabrii and Aquitanii being related, as Caesar mentions. This is typical of the Hispanocentric school that sees all Celtic or Iberic and nothing specifically Basque. Basques, or Cantabrians in this case are never allowed to be themselves, much less "French" (Aquitanian): they must always be Spaniards of Celtiberian origin, when not Berbers.

But the reality is very different. Notwithstanding the relations that Basques and Iberians did have and the wars that Basques and Celts also had with all likehood (no Celtic loanwords exist in Basque). --Sugaar 00:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And regarding lava, the origin is clearly sud-Italian but I don't believe it's from Latin. It must come from some other extinct language.

I suggest you read the article on Vasconic languages. Surely the reality is more complex than descived there but it's relevant. I also think that there were Mediterranean cultural currents going around forth and back long before Greeks and Phoenicians... not all has to be Bascoid substrate, hiri/uri and labe/laba could well be loanwords from that Mediterranean cultural corridor. --Sugaar 00:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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