Talk:Perth Airport

Table

I have inserted a table that WikiProject Airports are trying to make standard, and that I am adding to all Australian airport articles. I have completed the table but for an appropriate image. There was none of the airport in the article for me to use, so I've placed a temporary picture of Perth (from that article). Perhaps somebody could source and upload an appropriate image for use.--Cyberjunkie 09:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

don't they have a proper parameterized template yet? it would really help keep them in sync and keep all the wikitable syntax out of the article itself. if not, it should be created at template:Infobox Airport (i think they had a test version at template:Tmp which could be moved there). clarkk 10:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not participating in WikiProject Airports. I just stumbled across it and figured the table would be a worthwhile addition to the major Australian airports. As far as I'm aware, they are only in 'testing stage' (note the notice at end of table). There are at least three different tables being trialed. I took the one the Canadian and UK Wikipedians are using, and customised it for Australian airports, incorporating some aspects of the US table. Maybe I should just create a template for the Australian airports, and let WikiProject Airports do as they wish.--Cyberjunkie 10:49, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i would start an australian one (keep it consistent with the other one as much as possible), and ultimately they may choose to adopt the australian one as the standard (or base the standard on it). either way it would be good to have a standard one at least for the oz airports (like i did with template:Infobox Australian University. clarkk 11:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've created a template under Template:Infobox Australian Airport. It being the first large template I've ever attempted, it needs a bit of a fix-up. Would you be able to check the syntax? I'm having a hard time with coordinates in particular. And I've just realised that not all airports have two runways - Sydney has three. Does this mean all templates must have space for three runways, even if they only have two?--Cyberjunkie 14:16, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I added two sentences to the end of "Introduction of A380." I think people will find it interesting. -Amit, 07/04/05

Serious doubts about becoming Perth International Airport in 1952 - need proof! Sure it was Guildford Aerodrome then!User:SatuSuro 13:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC) oops but ok - maybe it was 'official' then! User:SatuSuro

Direct Perth/London link

I might be wrong here, but there is a comment in here about the A340-500 being able to do Perth-London direct, which is true for sure, but shouldn't it be amended to say that "it is currently considered uneconomical", otherwise it would've happend by now?qwertytam 05:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Fog

I have removed a section on fog, which claimed, without sources, that the nearest alternate airport for a heavy jet would be RAAF Learmonth. This seems incorrect, as RAAF Pearce's runway is sometimes used by USAF C-5 Galaxies. Also see ERSA entries for the airports: http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/ersa/FAC_YPEA_15-Mar-2007.pdf; http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/ersa/FAC_YPPH_15-Mar-2007.pdf. --Chewy m 15:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding Learmonth is the nearest alternate for a certain class of heavies. This article on Kalgoorlie is the only source I could find from a quick search - http://www.abc.net.au/northwestwa/news/200312/s1015791.htm

I couldn't open your links. RAAF Pearce by my understanding is too short for many jets and being relatively close to Perth may be under the same restricting conditions that YPPH may be experiencing (low cloud/ fog etc), making it a poor location as an alternate.

The C-5 as you noted is able to participate at Pearce due to its amazing ability to takeoff and land on very short runways - even when fully loaded. I will reinstate the section on fog with a few edits (any suggestions appreciated) and find a better source in the next week or two :) Hoxygt 02:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Virgin Atlantic

Ok, this is the third time I have had to revert information relating to them on this article so it's now time to include it on the talk page. For those of you wanting to add information regarding a planned route from London to Perth using the 787 Dreamliners purchased by the company in April - listen up! The airline never made any such commitment to fly the PER-LHR route non-stop. The announcement only indicated that the aircraft in question enabled them to fly such routes including Hawaii to London non-stop. Let me repeat, no firm commitment or suggestion was made they were going to or had plans to fly the route. Thank you Thewinchester ^(talk) 10:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're concerned the airline has not announced anything concrete yet, you could edit the offending text to clarify rather than reverting. This would not be out of place in this article - the section on the A380 is also speculative. Although the Virgin Atlantic press release did not say anything specific, both The Times (David Robertson, "Virgin orders Dreamliners for non-stop flight to Perth", 25 April 2007) and The Sunday Mirror ("Trade Update" - 29 April 2007) indicated immediate plans for flights to Perth. Cheers. --Chewy m 04:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Due respect, but the articles didn't indicate anything like that. From all the trade and other press reports I was able to read regarding this (and there was quite a few), the consensus was that airline made no commitment or demonstration of intent whatsoever to fly the route, either direct or implied. The key here is that they said they only had the capability to fly the routes in question upon receipt of the ordered aircraft, nothing more, nothing less. To include as you suggest the information in any form would be inappropriate, as it's purely speculative, the authors have quoted the statements made by Branson clearly out of context, thus leaving no reliable sources that can be used to substantiate the claims. Oh, and to put this to bed once and for all - Virgin Atlantic could not fly these aircraft to Australia even if they wanted to at this point in time, simply because of their marketing and licensing agreement with SIA, who has sole right to use the Virgin Atlantic name within the Asia-Pacific region (which is why Virgin Blue is named as it it). SIA would have to purchase these jets, and they would be flown under their existing code share arrangement with VA, under the SIA banner, unless in some planet aligning moment of common sense VA changed it's conditions of contract allowing them to fly their planes in VA livery. Thewinchester ^(talk) 04:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Not suggesting what you're saying is incorrect, but could you cite these these trade/press reports? Just seems that if The Times is going to be excluded for being an unreliable source, that unreliability should be verifiable. Given that it the Dreamliner section is speculative, do you agree that the "Introduction of the A380" section should also be removed? Thanks --Chewy m 05:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, yes - it should be deleted. Would you like the honours, or shall I? Thewinchester ^(talk) 06:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Perth International Airport

Does: Perth Airport Flying international flights? How much foreign destination to arrive nonstop? Which above? If yes, why that not Perth International Airport. just airport if no longer offer international flights like Shanghai Hongqiao Airport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roded86400 (talk • contribs) 09:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, international flights both depart and arrive at the airfield. However, the airport is officially known as Perth Airport since 2002 when the operating company officially decided to name it so. I would suggest reading up on the naming conventions of articles within WP:AVIATION. Thewinchester ^(talk) 11:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Web address

It seems some people seem to think the .com domain address for the airports website is more appropriate to have in the article. As the airport resides in Australia, it would be better to use the .net.au, mainly because the domain implies location and it's the exact same website. Thewinchester ^(talk) 16:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

stats?

will the 2008-2009 PAX stats live up to the 10,000,000+ i mean, with the economic downturn and what not.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannhaha (talk • contribs) 11:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Renumbering of terminals due to the redevelopment

I've just come across an article on the Perth Airports site stating that from 1 November 2012 a new numbering scheme will be in place at the airport. I was surprised when reading the wiki article to note the previous numbering scheme isn't mentioned anywhere. It mentions on passengers boarding passes which terminal by number they are leaving from. So having that information on the wiki page would prove beneficial.

Anyway the new airport terminal numbering information can be found here --Nathaniel73 (talk) 02:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

After re reading the article I see the terminal numbers are in facted mentioned on the page just not in a table as I was expecting. Nathaniel73 (talk) 02:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

References

Dublin

The following are sources for the direct Etihad service to DUB via AUH http://irisharoundoz.com/blog/2013/12/16/good-news-dublin-perth-new-australia-route-announced/ http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/new-dublin-perth-route-announced-1.1626850 http://www.irishecho.com.au/2014/01/13/etihad-reveals-dublin-perth-daily-service/30379 http://www.newstalk.ie/Etihad-to-launch-new-direct-flights-from-Dublin-to-Australia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.70.190 (talk) 00:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

These are all unreliable sources. They do not understand what a direct flight is, or do not understand how meaningless a connection means. On Etihad, you can connect to anywhere in the system that makes sense. July 15 is simply the start date for Etihad in Perth. It has no bearing for Dublin. The two segments do not use the same flight number or the same type of aircraft. And by going through a carrier's primary domestic hub, it nullifies any "directness" required by WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT. HkCaGu (talk) 10:18, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Locality or suburb

I've changed the word "locality" to "suburb" in the lead paragraph for consistency with "adjacent to suburbs...", and because "suburb" is the common term. (Also "located in a locality ..." sounds a bit repetitive.) However, I notice that:

• My 2011 Melway Greater Perth Street Directory uses "locality" not "suburb", eg page 3 Explanation of Map Symbols, and in the Facilities Guide at the back. (The latter's index includes "Suburbs (see Localities...)".)
• List of Perth suburbs says "Many of these 'suburbs' are 'localities'", implying that the terms are not synonymous.

Should we use the more accurate (according to Melway) "locality" or the more common "suburb"? Mitch Ames (talk) 10:01, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we should use the more common term, suburb. While there is technically a difference between suburbs and localities, in practical terms it's just what the local government decides to the area (eg Noranda is signposted as a locality [1]). And per MOS:JARGON, "Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do" - Evad37 [talk] 09:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I think there is a not missing there? As to the whole discussion above, I always assume that locality and suburb are inter-changeable - Melway is a half Landgate/half commercial venture, and the final judgement should be deferred either to what landgate have on their website (or if such users as Gnangarra or Orderinchaos were asked - they might remember the ad nauseum sort of diuscussions about these sorts of issues from 6 or 7 years ago) -

This sort of discussion is really either state or national noticeboard stuff. If you drive through the places in the mundaring shire for instance - they have signs 'locality of x' at the boundaries of the places - as to whether they are suburbs or localities in the strictest sense - this talk page is really a limited scope re this subject. satusuro 14:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

a not missing - oops, fixed now to "Do not introduce..." - Evad37 [talk] 15:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Page 11 of this Landgate document [2] uses the following definition: "Localities which are considered to be a part of the metropolitan area are known as Suburbs, and those which fall outside of this area are known as Bounded Localities." which supports the change from 'locality' to 'suburb'. If further or more general discussion is warranted, it would probably be better suited to occur at WT:WA (as suggested by satusuro above) - Evad37 [talk] 13:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Master plans

The article currently includes these sections, all at the same heading level:

• 2024 Airport Master Plan
• 2014 Airport Master Plan
• Intrastate terminal: T2
• International terminal
• Virgin Australia domestic pier
• Third runway
• Airport Drive

I think that 2024 Master Plan should be placed after 2014 Master Plan, but simply swapping the two sections is probably a bad idea. Intrastate terminal: T2, for example starts with "The first phase of the masterplan ..." - which I presume is the 2014 plan, not the 2024 plan.

It might make more sense to have something like this

• 2014 Airport Master Plan
  • Intrastate terminal: T2
  • International terminal
  • Virgin Australia domestic pier
  • Third runway
  • Airport Drive
• 2024 Airport Master Plan

but I don't know if all of these now sub-headings are actually part of master plan 2014. Someone more familiar with the scope of the two plans may care to address this. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Perth Airport/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article is now really worthy of a B-class rating after significant improvements to historical information. Thewinchester (talk) 03:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Formatting of "seasonal" etc in "Airlines and destinations - Passenger" table

@RPC7778 and Betterkeks: I disagree with the bold formatting in the table in Perth Airport#Passenger, specifically because the words in question:

• are not headings or pseudo-headings
• ought not be semantically emphasised "to denote importance, seriousness, or urgency". "The 'strong' markup is generally not appropriate in article text"

Relevant edits: [3][4][5]

I propose that the formatting should simply be removed, as it is not MOS-compliant. Is there some reason it should be there? Is there a better solution - perhaps separate columns for Season, Charter? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:48, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: I would have picked {{em}}, but I didn’t write it and {{strong}} is fine when it’s important which to me is the case here, so it’s in line with MOS. Another column is just a bad idea IMO. Maybe an icon? Betterkeks (talk) 13:48, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

It will look bad if there are separate column/s for the seasonal and charter ones. Also, I bolded the charter and seasonal labels because it appeared almost blended with regular services and I have to do a double-check to them in the table. Other users might also need to double-check the table to find the seasonal and charter ones. RPC7778 (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

@RPC7778 and Mitch Ames: This is a much larger discussion than just Perth airport; see Heathrow Airport and Frankfurt Airport. The whole table should probably be a template, so that (1) all airports are formatted the same and (2) all airports are changed at the same time if a better way to format this information emerges. To me (1) the information in that table is too dense and needs more "structure" and whitespace, and (2) the classification of Charter, seasonal, etc is important and mustn’t drown in these endless lists of destinations, and until a better way is found {{strong}} seems to be the consensus. Betterkeks (talk) 00:45, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Tbh, the outcome of both {{strong}} markup and text with triple apostrophes looks to be the same, so I don't have any problems with it switching from triple apostrophes to {{strong}}. RPC7778 (talk) 02:11, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

@RPC7778: Nice. For the sake of completeness, there are subtle but important differences. I changed it to {{strong}} because it is made to mark important words or phrases in a text, in a way that is (unlike simply boldfacing it) semantically meaningful markup. With this technique, the important text strongly stands out from the rest in most if not all visual browsers and some text-to-speech screen readers (which usually ignore purely typographic boldfacing), and can also be parsed by user agents and other software as definitively indicating importance, not just some typographic boldface effect for appearance's sake. Betterkeks (talk) 02:36, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a much larger discussion than just Perth airport — Agreed. I've mentioned this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airports#Formatting_of_Airlines/Destinations_table, and would not be averse to the entire conversation being moved to that project talk page (or a similar central location). Mitch Ames (talk) 07:09, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I still assert that {{strong}}, {{em}} or ''' are incorrect for text that is inline in the paragraph - in that context (inline text) those words are not "important, urgent, serious, emphasised" etc. If we want them to appear in bold so that we can find them easily, then perhaps those words should actually be pseudo-headings, rather than inline text (per Betterkeks: table is too dense and needs more "structure" and whitespace). In which case, instead of:

Airlines	Destinations
Alliance Airlines	Kalgoorlie, Newman, Port Hedland Charter: Barimunya, Cape Preston, Christmas Creek, Christmas Island, Coondewanna, Karratha, Leinster, Leonora, Mount Keith, Paraburdoo, Telfer, The Granites

we should have (using ''' and normal paragraph spacing):

Airlines	Destinations
Alliance Airlines	Kalgoorlie, Newman, Port Hedland Charter Barimunya, Cape Preston, Christmas Creek, Christmas Island, Coondewanna, Karratha, Leinster, Leonora, Mount Keith, Paraburdoo, Telfer, The Granites

or to reduce vertical space, <br/> after "Charter":

Airlines	Destinations
Alliance Airlines	Kalgoorlie, Newman, Port Hedland Charter Barimunya, Cape Preston, Christmas Creek, Christmas Island, Coondewanna, Karratha, Leinster, Leonora, Mount Keith, Paraburdoo, Telfer, The Granites

A more radical approach - just remove the words "Seasonal", "Charter" etc. In the context of an article about an airport, is it really import to distinguish when they fly? That degree of detail to me appears contrary to the spirit of WP:NOTDIRECTORY.

Mitch Ames (talk) 11:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

While not a member, I would like to add a few points.

The use of boldface is really out of place here. Why not just add another column to the table and use that to denote seasonal etc?

It could be done with a single.double letter abreviation, or with colour if an extra columnn is felt to be an issue.

MOS:BOLDFACE and MOS:NOBOLD clearly are against this usage, and for me, an extra column seems both logical and more reader-friendly Chaosdruid (talk) 12:54, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I see nowhere in WP:BOLDFACE that it is not allowed. Because it is common use at airport articles to highlight the words "Seasonal" to make it clear which connections are year round and which was are seasonal. It improves readability. To reduce readability by replacing boldface by an extra column is i8n my opinion nat in the best interest of the article. The Banner talk 13:07, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

It does not improve readability.

It also interferes with various systems used for people with impaired vision that rely on reading rather than viewing.

It cleearly says it here:

"When not to use boldface

Avoid using boldface for emphasis in article text. Instead, use HTML's <em>...</em> element or the {{em|...}} template (which usually render as italic)."

Thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 13:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

You are serious willing to sacrifice readability to enforce a mere guideline, in fact just an advice? Ever heard of WP:IAR? The Banner talk 13:44, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

And did you notice that we are talking about the use in a table and not in plain text? The Banner talk 13:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Please do not argue here, and please do not repeat things from your talk page here and make me reply in the two places.

I have already answered both these points on your talk page. Chaosdruid (talk) 17:58, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that you want to keep the discussion out of the limelight. After all, it is your personal preference, not guideline based. The Banner talk 19:01, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting that it is just a personal opinion and not guideline (not even a policy) based. But what it add is clarity between the year round flights and the seasonal flight, without have to read the whole list. A quick scan for boldface text is enough. It is not some much a problem with airlines that have only a few flights of one airport, but it is problematic at airlines that have ten or more flights for one airport. Then you have to read the entire list to finally find where the seasonals begin. The Banner talk 18:54, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

You are getting ridiculous now. I "admitted" no such thing.
EVERY entry on that list has a "seasonal" in bold face, thus totally negating your argument, as no clarity is added when ALL of them are boldfaced.
Why does it matter if someone is looking for the "seasonal" ones? THe average reader will not be looking for that.
More improtantly, it would look better, be more readable, and make ore sense if there was an extra column which had that detail
Once again, it is against MOS, which is not some "pointless set of rules". Go get THEM changed if you really want to start doing whatever you want without consequence. Chaosdruid (talk) 12:12, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Seeing that you need personal attacks in your edits, I guess you are out of arguments. The Banner talk 12:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh dear. WP:AGF has been constantly ignored throughout our discussions. I have made no such personal attack.

On the contrary, suggesting I said things that were not said could very easily be seen as a personal attack Chaosdruid (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I did not use personal attacks in the edit summery. You did. The Banner talk 16:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

• The bolding of Seasonal or Charter does not improve readability. All it does is draw the eye in, giving the reader the impression that seasonal and charter flights are more important to the airport than regular flights. They ain't. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 04:05, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Qatar Airways Cargo

Why is Qatar Airways Cargo appear on the list of airlines and destinations? According the their website they only fly passenger to Perth not Cargo. 159.196.132.9 (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)