Talk:Zaragoza

Name

A Google English-language search gave 23,600 hits for Saragossa (including many historical references) and 171,000 for Zaragoza. There's lots of noise, but we're talking almost an order of magnitude. Should we throw this one over? -Montréalais 07:34, 6 September 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, and I got over four million pages for "Milano" even though it is indisputably "Milan" in English. Don't be a Google slave. Take into account these factors that boost the numbers you get for "Zaragoza".

• Most people are ignorant and don't know what the name is. They may read it off maps, which give the local name. The fact that historians call it "Saragossa" shows that educated people call it so.
• Most (again ignorant) people are familiar with the city through its football team, and football teams always use the local name.
• Many pages are counted as English when they are actually not.
• Many pages are not written by native speakers of English.
• A minority of people just like saying "Zaragoza", "Milano", "Italia", "München", etc. to show off, or out of some idea that it's more correct.
• The spelling "Zaragoza" found online disguises the fact that everyone pronounces it "Saragossa" anyway.

"Saragossa" is the correct name, and will be used on Wikipedia. Anyone searching for "Zaragoza" will be redirected to the correct page. The fact that lots of people don't know what it is called is just an argument for making sure there is a redirect. —Chameleon 20:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

1. Having done further Googling, I find that nearly all of the hits for "Milano" in the first few pages are uses of the name in clearly Italian-language contexts, such as Italian names of institutions. Even so, there are nearly identical numbers of hits for "Milan" as "Milano" (circa 3 million each). By contrast, there are presently upwards of 20 times more hits for Zaragoza than Saragossa, and many more hits in the first few pages that use it in an English-language context. Many of the links to Saragossa are in a historical context, not a current one.
2. Both of my English atlases give "Zaragoza" as the name of the city, even when giving other English-language names such as Seville, Rome, and Milan.
3. I have never heard the city called Saragossa outside of Wikipedia before now.
4. Even if we were to decide to use Saragossa as the article for the city, I deny that we ought to have the province at Saragossa (province). It is a Spanish administrative division, rarely referred to in English, and ought to use the Spanish name, just as we had Seville being the capital of the province of Sevilla before you intervened.
5. In conclusion, the general rule is to use the most common name used by speakers of English. You have admitted above that the name most commonly used by speakers of English (regardless of whether they are map-readers or footballers) is Zaragoza.

- Montréalais 15:54, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

(I deleted some out-of context conversation) Pfortuny 07:03, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Let's look at this logically, with an irrelevant example. "Czechoslovakia" gets 1 million hits. "Czech Republic" gets over 8 million hits. Obviously, the country is called the "Czech Republic" now. Google hits are, therefore, informative. </bad logic> ugen64 22:57, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes it is. Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore, any more than Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union do. Would you please clarify your point? - Montréalais 23:05, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

He's supporting you, so just chill and accept it. —Chameleon 01:14, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, in fact, we do expect you to take Wikipedia's community standards and procedures seriously, Chameleon. Editing here is a privilege — not a right. And by the way, as I said on your talk page, although you may be completely satisfied with the logic and internal consistency of your decisions regarding Zaragoza and Sevilla, your changes are in contravention of Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Please refer to those pages and if you want to propose a change, please discuss them first on the talk pages of the convention page in question. — Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 01:56, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Who was talking about standards? —Chameleon 09:34, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

You might has resoluted the cuestion, but anyway I´m going to help you. google shows more pages with Zaragoza, simply because Zaragoza isn´t very famous, and if someone writes about it, he is Spanish. I prefer zaragoza, but I live in it and speak Spanish and I also have heard Saragossa.--FAR 22:24, 4 March 2005 (UTC)

I think Chameleon was very right using Saragossa as the correct name in English for the city and still don't understand why it's been changed to the Spanish name. I've read those reasons, but still don't find them convincing at all. Thanks to the redirect feature, those who don't know the correct name in English for the city can still find the entry. I'm from Saragossa but been living in the UK for nearly five years, and still find Saragossa very often over there... I can say British feel more comfortable when reading "Saragossa" rather than "Zaragoza" which sounds very foreign and raises doubts on how to pronounce it. You have mentioned football, however I even found Saragossa written in chalk when pubs announce their football TV schedule! Just because they feel "Zaragoza" very foreign. (this is a surprise for Saragossans visiting as tourists now that we have cheap direct flights to London). Sure, I was totally ignorant of "Saragossa" before I learned English, so that is probably why people from Saragossa do use "Zaragoza" instead when speaking their broken English :( But that should not be a point to be made! The city lost about two-thirds of its population after the French invasion of 1808. No doubt, that contributed to a loss of relevance that made people abroad forget about it, and altogether, loss of relevance of the proper, historial and actual English name "Saragossa".

Now the city is bouncing back, promoted by its own people, probably with the wrong name, just because we have lost conscience of our relevance in a European context along history and our English is poor! In a tourist bus, I once found written "PLEASE REMIND SEAT" (ie. "please remain seated"). While you get more links when googling for "Zaragoza", please analyse the "weight" of the links containing "Saragossa". Also remember, while the French contributed to the decay of "Saragossa", their actions here also made the city very very well known over there! And sure, they do say "Saragosse" and never "Zaragoza". Italians "Saragozza". Portuguese "Saragoça". Occitan and Polish "Saragossa". Mbroc 10:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia's convention for city names is: City names

Convention: In general, there are no special naming conventions for cities, unless multiple cities with the same name exist.

Originally, Zaragoza comes from Caesaraugusta, a colony settled by Augustus, not from Salduie, that was the previous village in the zone. The name Zaragoza is a phonetic derivation from Latin to Spanish. The name Saragoça is the intermediate status in Romance, with all his natural variants in the different romanic languages (Italian, French, Portuguese, Catalanish, Aragonish, etc). That's the reason because there are more variants like Saragosse, Saragossa, Saragoça, etc. All Romanic languages conserves an archaic status of the name (in order to phonetic laws), but the actual name in Spanish is Zaragoza, due to phonetic laws in Spanish. So this discussion has no sense at all. All names are correct, but the official name in Spanish is Zaragoza, another thing is that is difficult to pronounce for speakers of other languages. This is like Pekin or Bei-jing. It has been Pekin for us, but this was an incorrect pronuntiation of Chinese, and now everybody must say Bei-jing. Zaragoza must be called Zaragoza, but if it is difficult for an English speaker, it's not a problem. When I write London on Internet I know that this is its official name, but if I search information about London in Spanish, I'll write Londres. Is that a real problem? You shouldn't use arguments with all that language-centrism... How anybody can think that a Spanish city name has changed from its English name???? Or how anybody can think that the official name of a city is his English name? Caesaraugusta has 2000 years of antiquity. The evolution of the name is due to the language of its population, like it occurs anywhere, in any city, in the world. Francho 12:11, 7 August 2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.14.101 (talk) 10:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Taifas

I've been trying to find more...any, really...information about current taifas in Europe. The information I have found is rather scant. I would like to know more if anyone has knowledge of them or an idea of where I can learn more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.75.113 (talk) 01:33, 13 April 2004 (UTC)

Location, Location, Location

Is Zaragoza, Spain, a compromise solution reached during last year's move wars? Either Zaragoza or Saragossa would be closer to policy, so I'm assuming that's the reason. –Hajor 15:39, 9 February 2005 (UTC)

Yes, regardless of whether we want to call it Zaragoza or Saragossa (I vote for the first one), we ought to lose the disambiguation from the title. This is a pretty clear case of primary topic. Alas, yet again I find the target has an edit history and I'm not an admin, so if one is passing through could they please do the necessary. — Trilobite (Talk) 00:17, 5 March 2005 (UTC)

Done. –Hajor 15:46, 5 March 2005 (UTC)

Pre-Spain Rulers

Whats that doing in the External Links section? That needs to be fixed. Yodakii 17:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Lugares de interés

Entre los lugares de interés para el visitante destacan:

• El Pilar, una gran obra religiosa decorada con pinturas de Goya y su suegro Francisco Bayeu.
• La Catedral de la Seo, recientemente restaurada y mezcla de estilos, desde sus basamentos románicos hasta el barroco pasando por el gótico y el mudéjar. No hay que dejar de ver su cimborrio, ábside, el retablo del altar mayor y el órgano.
• El Palacio de La Aljafería: construcción árabe sede que fue del rey taifa de Saraqusta y actual de las Cortes de Aragon. Se puede visitar destacando el patio rodeado de arcos de herradura entrelazados con excelentes yeserías, el mirab, y la planta superior, de factura renacentista, con la gran escalera de acceso y el salón del trono.
• La torre mudéjar de la iglesia de la Magdalena, en el Coso Bajo, en el arranque de la calle Mayor.
• Las torres mudéjar de las Iglesias de San Miguel, San Gil y San Pablo.
• El Tubo, laberinto de callejuelas salpicadas de bares situado tras la Plaza de España y que en la actualidad se encuentra un tanto venido a menos por el envejecimiento de sus edificios y habitantes y la construcción de un edificio de servicios de nueva planta y diseño.
• La fábrica completamente metálica del Mercado Central.
• Los restos de las antiguas murallas romanas.
• La lonja, construcción renacentista situada en la plaza del Pilar.
• Plaza de San Felipe y plaza de la Justicia.
• La calle Alfonso.
• El Casino Mercantil en la plaza de España.

• Los Museos:
  • Centro de Historia de Zaragoza, Pza San Agustín nº2, (Barrio de la Magdalena)
  • Museo del Teatro Romano, C/ Verónica
  • Museo Pablo Gargallo, Pza. San Felipe, 3 Tel. 976 39 20 58
  • Museo Pilarista, Pza. del Pilar s/n Tel. 976 39 74 97
  • Museo de Zaragoza, Pza. de los Sitios, 6 Tel. 976 22 21 81
  • Museo Pablo Serrano, Pº María Agustín, 20 Tel. 976 28 06 59 / 976 28 06 60
  • Museo Camon Aznar, C/ Espoz y Mina, 23 Tel. 976 39 73 28
  • Museo Paleontológico, C/ Pedro Cerbuna, 12 Tel. 976 76 10 79
  • Museo Etnográfico, en la reproducción de casa ansotana de la entrada al Parque Primo de Rivera (El "parque grande")

• Existen varios teatros, donde se muestran obras de interés general y en ocasiones obras de teatro alternativo.

• Se cuenta con un Auditorio-Centro de Congresos que acapara la práctica totalidad de los muchos congresos y reuniones profesionales que se celebran en Zaragoza y también de la actividad musical de la capital. En este Auditorio tienen la sede el grupo Enigma-Orquesta de Cámara del Auditorio de Zaragoza, orquesta de formación variable que posee un convenio con este Auditorio y que tiene una pequeña temporada propia de conciertos, dedicándose con especial interés a la difusión de la música contemporánea. También ofrece concierto pedagógicos para escolares y colabora con el también coro del Auditorio, coro Amici Musicae. Continuando con la música clásica, también organizan conciertos las entidades de ahorro Ibercaja y CAI, así como Juventudes Musicales de Zaragoza, pero todas éstas de un modo más esporádico y enfocada a otro tipo de agrupaciones y público.

• Aunque el ocio de la ciudad discurra por derroteros más modernos, como los cines, existiendo 5 ó 6 salas en torno a la que pasa por ser la via principal, y otros tantos más en los grandes centros comerciales de Grancasa y Augusta, habiéndo supuesto, la aparición de salas multicine, la desaparición de algunos de los cines de más solera aunque no ha impedido la supervivencia de alguna de las antiguas salas del centro.

Las zonas de marcha, son fundamentalmente Rollo (música comercial y de adolescentes), El Casco (para gente joven, universitaria), La Zona y Zuma.

Otros

• El galacho de Juslibol: un meandro separado del rio Ebro y convertido en laguna. De interés ecológico y medioambiental.
• Refugio de fauna silvestre de la Lomaza de Belchite (Zaragoza) [1].
• El Parque Grande, como se conoce popularmente al parque Primo de Rivera.
• El ambiente callejeando en la zona comprendida entre el Coso Bajo, calle Mayor, Mercado Central y el rio Ebro, disfrutando de sus plazuelas y bares tradicionales de tapas.
• Para los que gusten de la arquitectura moderna, pueden visitar el Auditorio para ver su exterior, principalmente su fachada principal. También pueden visitar la nueva estación de ferrocarril, situada en la Avda. de Navarra, y la sede de la Confederación Regional de Empresarios de Aragon, situada en el barrio ACTUR, y que fue el pabellón de Aragón de la Expo' 92 de Sevilla.

Transport connections

Está comunicada con el resto de la Península mediante autovias y autopistas aunque la doble via hacia el Levante valenciano todavía se encuentra en una lentísima fase de ejecución. Hacia el Levante castellonense a través del Bajo Aragon la carretera es convencional y atraviesa el casco urbano de diversos pueblos.

Dispone Zaragoza de un aeropuerto muy próximo a la ciudad, de escaso tráfico, aunque el tráfico de mercancías está en auge. En períodos vacacionales tales como verano y Semana Santa se están programando vuelos charter desde el mismo con gran éxito. La situación de este aeropuerto entre los del Pais Vasco y Cataluña, atractores de gran parte de movimiento aéreo, así como la presencia anexa de una base aérea militar, podrían ser los motivos de que no haya un verdadero interés por alguna Administración en aumentar el aprovechamiento de este aeropuerto, pues conllevaría, para unos el desvio de parte de su tráfico -saturado- hacia estas instalaciones, y para otros la sobrecarga del espacio aéreo restringiendo su empleo militar.

Removing "American School of Warsaw" reference

I removed this because

• It didn't belong above the disambiguation link
• It makes an inaccurate statement that is not supported by citation

As far as I have been able to research, the American School of Warsaw is in Warsaw, Poland, not in Spain. Branches of the American School can be found all over the planet. The HQ is in Washington, DC. There may be an American School in Zaragoza, but I have not been able to determine this. If I have removed the line in error, please replace. But note that it belongs in the "Places of interest" section, NOT at the top before the disambiguation link. The presence of an American School is not the most important factoid about Zaragoza. Canonblack 17:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Name in Aragonese

I believe that the name Saragossa comes from the fact that the city is called Saragossa in Aragonese (and in Catalan too). I'm not terribly concerned about which one is ultimatley chosen, but I bristle at the use of the troubling adverb "formerly" in the article as it stands now. alternatively, perhaps? I would also suggest taking out the qualifying phrase "in English." Blondlieut 14:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Zaragoza vs Zarogoza

Where did the name change, and where did it come from Spain or Mexico? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasmne (talk • contribs) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Zaragoza is in Spain. Zarogoza, nunca lo oí. Anselmocisneros 00:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Demography Graph

The demography graph is bad. First it gives ten year intervals, then one year, which gives a distorted image. It should be only deceniia, or if data lacks, the 19x1 year. Also the image is a wee bit large. --145.99.202.93 21:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

More name commentary.

From the city in other languages section: Muslim: Sarakusta; Proto-Latin: Salduba. What the heck is Proto-Latin? It doesn't show up on either the Latin page or the History of Latin page. Sure, there's the PIE, but that's a different kettle of fish. Also, "Muslim?" Muslim isn't a language- does this mean that the Muslims called the city a different name prior to the Reconquista? In other words, is this a political difference (in which case there should be more details), or a language difference (in which case a more specific language should be used, like Arabic)?

Also, the Zaragoza vs. Saragossa debate should probably be covered in this article somewhere (as noted on the talk page above). Regardless, they're both common names used and should both be bolded as per lead guidelines. SnowFire 06:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Tagged for copyediting

This article contains a lot of good information, but the grammar, punctuation, and style are very sorely lacking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantseetheforest (talk • contribs) 10:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Explain

Why is there a large box at the bottom listing pre-spanish rulers? Yet the ancient history, pre-moslem conquest is almost totally empty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.215.119 (talk) 23:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

On the Spanish Wikipedia, there is no need for es:Edimburgo to be moved to suit the English name Edinburgh. There has been some discussion above on Zaragoza v. Saragossa. As noted, in the case of a city or a country we rightly use the usual name in English for an article of the English language Wikipedia, and not the usual name in the language of the city or the country itself: Munich, Germany, Milan, Italy, and not Milano, Italia, München, Deutschland. I'm struggling to understand the wish of some Spanish speakers to use the Spanish name here: isn't it flattering to the city that in English we have our own name for it, just as we do for Rome or The Hague? Xn4 (talk) 15:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. But the low-brow trend in Wikipedia means that "Zaragoza" will stay, and we will no doubt see the day when Turin, Rome and Lisbon are moved to Torino, Roma and Lisboa. — Chameleon 16:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Catalan Wiki article on Saragossa confirms that the foreign name for this city in French, Italian, English, and German is just an adaptation of the Catalan version. Should it have precedence over the Castilian/Aragonese form? I don't know. Bottom line: "Saragossa" is not an Anglicisation. Srnec (talk) 03:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Whether it's an 'anglicization' isn't the issue at all. I can't think of any names of overseas cities which are, very often we have adopted the French or German form. But I begin to see why some Castilian speakers are anxious about the English using Saragossa - what they mind is not that it's different to Zaragoza, but that it's the Catalan name. Xn4 (talk) 11:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You made it an issue: "isn't it flattering to the city that in English we have our own name for it". The answer is "No, because we don't". Srnec (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Saragossa is 'our own name', but it isn't an 'anglicization', any more than Venice or Cologne are anglicizations. Xn4 (talk) 21:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

But isn't this whole discussion about whether "our name for it" is really Zaragoza or whether "Saragossa" is in any sense our own name for it? I dispute that Zaragoza is not our name for it. It's the name I use. A Catalan atlas will say "Saragossa" and a Castilian one "Zaragoza". Srnec (talk) 04:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support per WP:UE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose;. While Saragossa was its historical name in English, the tendence in English-speaking media is to use Zaragoza nowadays. The same applies to other towns such as Corunna. --Asterion^talk 01:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Great moments of hypocrisy Asterion. When it comes to Zaragoza versus Saragossa, your comment sounds fair to me, but for the actual requested move of Vitoria, it sure doesn't make any sense to me now. Why don't you have the same comment earlier for Vitoria-Gasteiz. You might have a nationalist POV for Vitoria because it's in Basque Country (autonomous community), Spain.Zorion talk 20:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
    • It is the same rationale indeed. What the most common name in English language is. Refer to Corunna above. In the same way, we have Seville and not Sevilla, despite the former not being the official form. On the other hand, I would appreciate if you assume good faith towards other editors, even if you disagree with their views. Regards, Asterion^talk 20:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Neither is more English than the other: Saragossa is the Catalan. I always thought the word came into English from Catalan because Zaragoza was the capital of the Aragonese kingdom, which was largely ruled by Catalans from Barcelona in the Middle Ages. As for usage, I think Zaragoza predominates in English today. Srnec (talk) 02:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Current English usage is Zaragoza. Historical usage; evidently Saragossa. But we are here in the present. BalkanFever 02:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Evidence for this position would be nice. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. The motive or how or why Saragossa became the English name of the city isn't important. It is the English name and we should use it. — AjaxSmack 16:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Evidence should be presented for this, since Google (~62 million vs ~2 million) and my atlases do not back it up. PMA challenges the opposers to present evidence, but the burden of proof should be on those proposing the move. If I proposed moving this article to Çaragoça, would it really be up to you to show me that it is not the most common? I knew his city as Zaragoza long before I started learning Spanish or Catalan. Srnec (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The consensus of English-speaking editors is one of the types of evidence accepted by WP:NCGN. Raw google is not; in addition to the many other problems with indiscriminate use of search engines, Spanish sites using Zaragoza, however numerous, should interest the Spanish WP, not us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

But you haven't developed consensus yet. I disagree that Saragossa preponderates over Zaragoza any longer. Maybe it once did, as the links give below imply, but any modern reference to the city is to Zaragoza. Even at LIBRO, a search for "Zaragoza" turns up 220 hits versus the 117 for "Saragossa", and all of LIBRO's books are English and most are not recent. JSTOR shows 4315 hits for Z and 1381 for S. My Rand McNally atlas from 1994 uses Z, the Britannica uses Z, and so does the Columbia. Srnec (talk) 04:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"It is the English name" - no. It is an English name, one of two seen with decent frequency in English language writing. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as Zaragoza is well-established in English, and none of the "support" !voters are coming up with any evidence to the contrary. Search for Zaragoza on Amazon.co.uk and you get 1165 hits (including travel guides and maps), as opposed to 111 hits for Saragossa. Search for Zaragoza on the BBC website and you get 541 hits, as opposed to 52 hits for Saragossa. Search for Saragossa on Hotels.com and you get taken to Zaragoza. PC78 (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) refers to the usual name "...as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works)." That doesn't refer to Amazon.co.uk, nor even to the BBC. If you could quote encyclopaedias and atlases, it would be more persuasive. Meanwhile, even here at Wikipedia we have all of these articles... Xn4 (talk) 21:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Battle of Saragossa
  • Siege of Saragossa
  • Siege of Saragossa (1808)
  • Siege of Saragossa (1809)
  • Councils of Saragossa
  • Valerius of Saragossa
  • Vincent of Saragossa
  • The Saragossa Manuscript (film)
  • The Manuscript Found in Saragossa
  • Saragossa Opening
  • Dukes of Saragossa

You have misunderstood. The BBC website is a perfectly reliable source for common English-language usage; it is one of the most widely read English-language texts in the world; many readers will have experience of this source and come to Wikipedia seeking further information, and should not be surprised by anachronistic spelling. The name used for the modern-day city is not incompatible with the name used in those articles. The older spelling is used in those contexts, and the Zaragoza spelling is used in the modern context, mirroring the different usage in different contexts. This is a similar situation to that seen where cities' names have changed - Volgograd, most common name for the modern city, but Battle of Stalingrad, most common name for the battle even in modern texts. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. This is one of those cases where the traditional (and antiquated) English name is not better than the local name. DWaterson (talk) 20:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. The evidence already present here speaks for itself. Starstriker7(^{Say hi}_{or see my works}) 21:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. "Saragossa" was once the usual English name, but it hasn't been the most common name used in (American — I wonder if there's a US/British difference here?) English for at least a few decades, and probably a century or so. I see nothing wrong with "Zaragoza". "Saragossa" feels unnaturally archaic and affected, as if we're deliberately picking a little-used name "because it's more English". Cf. Beijing (not Peking), Sati (not Suttee). --Quuxplusone (talk) 07:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I see no evidence that this is an English variety issue at all, just a change in usage over time common to all varieties. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Evidence of usage should be the first and last thing discussed here. Even the most cursory reading of WP:UE shows that our definition of English is what English-language sources use, not any other arbitrary notions of "Englishness" - there is nothing more English than what English-language speakers use. The existence of an English exonym does not automatically imply it is used prevalently - Ratisbon, Lyons, Leghorn. The policy is crystal-clear on this - reliable evidence of usage is all that is to be taken into account by the RM closer. If you want to quote and use the policy, you have to adhere by its metric of Englishness.

On top of Srnec's research showing a preference for Zaragoza in JSTOR academic journals, and PC78's evidence from a popular news source, Encarta, EB, Columbia Encyclopaedia, CIA World Factbook and the English website of the current EXPO all use Zaragoza. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

The Manuscript Found in Saragossa is precisely on point here. It was written by a Pole, and originally published in French; the Polish and French versions use neither Zaragoza nor Saragossa. Nevertheless, all the English translations, whether of 1960, 1962, or 1994, use Saragossa, because that is clear to English-speaking readers; so does the critical literature in English. We should do likewise, for the same reason. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Then that is the correct spelling to use in the context of that article. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Mañolandia"?

I've seen the city being referred to as Mañolandia in a few places ([2], [3]). Is this a usual nickname? Is it derogatory? What does it mean? Would it be worth mentioning/explaining in the article? Thanks in advance! --LodeRunner (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Maño is a nickname for Aragonese people in general, not just for Zaragoza. Mañolandia must be a recent word coinage, I don't know if it refers to Zaragoza or all of Aragón, in any case it's not common and I perceive it as slightly derogatory. --Jotamar (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation! --LodeRunner (talk) 04:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Video game streets

See:

• Shoichet, Catherine E. "Spanish neighborhood unveils 'Super Mario' street." CNN. November 8, 2010.

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Jewish quarter en:Saragossa images

Hello! Can you, please, help with my desperate need to get images of former Jewish quarter (Spanish: call) in Saragossa usable in Wiki? I need it for ru:Крескас, Хасдай = es:Hasdai Crescas. Great thanks! --lkitross (talk) 13:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Painting in Saragossa

Hello! In the Art Museum of Saragossa there is a painting "Saint Helena interrogates Judas, a Jew", here is a fragment: File:JewInterrogation.JPG. I read about it originally in REPRESENTACIONES PICTÓRICAS DE LOS JUDÍOS EN ARAGÓN, SIGLOS XIII AL XV. By MARÍA DEL CARMEN LACARRA DUCAY. Universidad de Zaragoza. Can you see from the article or from another source, if the painter's name is known, who was it and when approximately worked? All this since you mention this museum! Great thanks! --lkitross (talk) 13:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

"Zaragossa"

In fact this form is never used, although a few people have surnames spelled lke that; other instances you might Google are just typos. Try googling "city of Zaragossa" (in quotes) and compare with "city of Saragossa" or "city of Zaragoza" (this way we can be sure we're only finding pages in English.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdeMiami (talk • contribs) 09:43, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Gaelic Influences not mentioned

In the early 2000's when I visited Zaragoza to talk about Vietnam Business opportunities at the invitation of the Zaragoza Chamber of Industry and as Lebrero Rollers Vietnam agent they told me some still speak Gaelic as a left over of the Gael's influences there and the Iberian Peninsula, but I find no reference here. Someone who knows the answers could provide such detail to clarify the matter please.--111.91.234.188 (talk) 05:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

You are probably confusing it with the Aragonese language, which is Romance and not Celtic. --Jotamar (talk) 20:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)