Talk:Tomáš Masaryk

Untitled

"The title given to this article is incorrect due to technical limitations." I don't know whether it is now possible to use non-"Latin 1" characters in the page title. If so, Tomáš Masaryk or Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk is a more appropriate location. If not, T. G. Masaryk is how his name is often written in Czech Republic, and this won't use forbidden characters. - Mike Rosoft 17:43, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Support. I took the liberty of moving him to Tomáš Masaryk, where you had already made a redirect yesterday. It appears these technical difficulties have been overcome with the upgrade. / up+land 18:15, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• A while ago I proposed moving Edvard Benes to Edvard Beneš on the basis of the Beneš decrees overcoming technical limitations, however it was opposed for some other technical problem. Can I ask for a general move so that all articles with Czech characters in the "correct" location either use them or do not - a mix and match policy isn't the best. Timrollpickering 18:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• From Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) - "Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." While the software may support the Czech characters, it is not always appropriate to use them. -- Netoholic @ 05:12, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

I think that convention is aimed at names in other writing systems, hence the requirement for transliteration. Czech and English both use the Latin alphabet. I'm in favour of the heading including the correct diacritics, even though casual English usage would probably drop them. Google knows that Tomá? and Tomas are the same, so searchability no impediment to retaining the diacritics. —Michael Z. 05:28, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

That's not true of Google. If it was than these three searches should return the same data - Tomas Masaryk Tomás Masaryk Tomáš Masaryk. They are actually quite different results. -- Netoholic @ 06:44, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

If we were aplying the casual Endlish usage rule strictly then we'd probably end up converting the names to the usual English spellings which is increasingly inaccurate in modern usage. Redirects can take care of the different Google spellings. I support move to Tomáš Masaryk and all similar. Timrollpickering 08:58, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You get more hits on Google if you stick to Tomas Masaryk. This suggests to me that the "casual English usage rule" in this case is working very well indeed. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Move to Tomas Masaryk. -- Netoholic @ 06:44, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)
• Move to Tomas Masaryk. This is an English language encyclopedia and we should not expect the reader to adopt the Czech spelling. However the forename is preferable to the initials. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:46, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Tomáš Masaryk is not a word in the English language, but neither is Tomas Masaryk. It is a personal name which has no traditional English form (as opposed to Virgil, Horace etc.). As Rd232 points out below, there are redirects, and there is no reason to obscure the correct orthography when there are no technical limitations. (And, as dab notes, it is a policy issue, not one which should be decided on a case-by-case basis.) / up+land 19:26, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • On the contrary, there's an excellent reason to ignore the Czech orthography. English speakers tend to ignore accents and adopt a naive transliteration scheme which works quite well. Thus most English speakers would type Tomas Masaryk and expect to get an article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:06, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Redirects, redirects, redirects. If Tomáš Masaryk is possible and Tomas Masaryk directs to it, why shouldn't the man have his name spelt correctly? In any case, if the poor man can't, he should at least be under T. G. Masaryk if that is how he is often referred to. (See eg H. G. Wells.) And surely the logic of the common disclaimer "The title given to this article is incorrect due to technical limitations." is that with the removal of those limitations the articles should be moved. Or we should remove the disclaimer, <:sarcasm>bowing to the god of Wikipedia convention, Common Usage, and distaining idols like Correctness.<:/sarcasm>; <:nosarcasm>what Timrollpickering says. <:/nosarcasm> Rd232 16:06, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • There are very good reasons to have an article where people expect to find it rather than using redirects. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) for the whys and wherefores. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:26, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    • Remind me again why we have Hermann Göring not Hermann Goering? Where are the current conventions on handling accents and characters? Timrollpickering 18:00, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    • What an odd way to phrase your question. To my knowledge I have never had cause to remind you of any such thing. There is no policy reason for having Göring rather than Goering--presumably whoever created the article used the German spelling. There are no conventions on handling accents and characters.
    • Now that I've dealt with your odd diversion, I observe that it has absolutely *nothing* to do with the policy document I cited. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:44, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • "Remind me again" is a standard phrase for highlighting similar cases. I was highlighting the fact that there are other cases of characters used in article titles, which is highly relevant, especially as the conventions are currently loose. Timrollpickering 20:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• this discussion doesn't belong here. It's a policy issue not particular to this case. Go to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English). dab (ᛏ) 18:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• The "technical limitation" in question is not one of a lack of support in the MediaWiki software, but rather that the English Wikipedia has not yet been converted from Latin-1 to UTF-8. Because of this, certain conversions automatically take place, and this article's title now includes a non-printing control character (0x9A, the single character introducer, and most certainly not an s-caron). Once the database is converted and the software reconfigured, I would love nothing more than to have this article at its proper title, but until then, this title and others like it break compliance with the stated character set and throw all but the most accomodating of user agents for a loop. ADH (t&m) 21:31, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

Hm, the W3C validator seems to be complaining about the á (a-acute) character. Would rendering this or the c-caron as HTML entities do the trick? —Michael Z. 00:25, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)

• Move to Tomas Masaryk. This is an English language encyclopedia, and will result in the fewest redirects. Most English speakers quite properly don't use all the various possible diacritical marks often enough to know how to make them to enter them into the search boxes, even if they know what they should be. What many seem to fail to understand is that whenever he Wikipedia software gets bogged down, a redirect takes longer and is much, much more likely to fail without retrieving the article than a direct link. The time spent in searching out those redirects also contributes to the problem of bogging down, I would think. Gene Nygaard 01:36, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Move to Tomas Masaryk Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English) but alternative with a diacritic should be included on first line, so it show up in a search with a diacritic and there should be a redirect from Tomás Masaryk Philip Baird Shearer 17:27, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Move to Tomas Masaryk. Proteus (Talk) 09:29, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Move to Thomas Masaryk, since this was the name he was known in USA (where he spent a lot of time), if you insist on this Wikipedia being English-language-centric. Otherwise, I am for Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk. Ignorance of most English-speaking people is no reason for making incorrect entries (and there are redirects anyway) rado 09:21, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Garrigue

Why did he adopt his wife's maiden surname as his own middle name? How is Garrigue pronounced and what is its origin? JackofOz 02:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Its a Mediterranean herb ergo I assume she is from that region

Very belatedly (this must be record for procrastination), thanks for the reference to garrigue, a herb I'd never heard of before. That page tells me nothing about how the word is pronounced. Is it "gar-rig" (à la French), or "garry-gay", or "garry-gway", or "garry-gew", or something else? -- JackofOz (talk) 02:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It is surname of his American wife and at least in the Czech Republic it is pronounce "gar-rig".--Motionofmind (talk) 00:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

funeral photo

It is hardly possible that Masaryk could appear himself in the train window at his own funeral ... The photo on the Faith No More album indeed features Masaryk, but at least 5 years before his death.

Move to Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk

I'm proposing move to Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk because:

• it's his full name under which he served as president and is widely known (other possibility is Tomas Masaryk but this lacks consensus and IMO is very inaccurate)
• article introduction lists Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk and Tomas Masaryk as variants of his name but he is listed as Tomáš Masaryk on Wikipedia nonetheless. This doesn't make sense.

Please discuss here pros and cons of this proposal. Thank you.--Pethr 21:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I am Czech and we allways use Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk or Masaryk or T. G. Masaryk. But we almost never talk about him as Tomáš Masaryk, so it defenetely should not be in the heading. If it should be Tomas or Tomáš it is not so important for us, I would say. --85.207.73.250 (talk) 09:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Google hits seems to show this as true. Iamaleopard (talk) 01:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Move completed. Aleta ^Sing 15:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

fortnajt 80.250.4.94 (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Portratit photograph

The photograph in the "name box" is certainly not a portrait - it is photoshoped from ordinary image of Masaryk getting of a train (which is next to it in Wikimedia), imposed on black background and what's worst, horizontally flipped. It is a little lie therefore and proper portrait should IMHO be chosen. I'll at least change the description under it. --Motionofmind (talk) 00:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I unflipped the image. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Masaryk and feminism

Hello, I just wanted to add that Masaryk was also an outspoken advocate for the women's movement. That's one of the reasons he took his wife's name. Passages concerning women's emancipation can be found, among else, in Otázka sociální (The Social Question) and in Hovory; the most concise summary of his positions on the "woman question" can be found in his four lectures: Moderní názor na ženu (A Modern View of Women, 1904), Postavení ženy v rodině a ve veřejném životě (The Position of the Woman in the Family and in Public Life, 1907), Mnohoženství a jednoženství (Polygyny and Monogyny, 1899) and Žena u Ježíše a Pavla (Jesus and Paul on Women, 1910). These were later published in the anthology Masaryk a ženy (Masaryk and Women, 1930) by the Czech National Women's Council, a major Czech feminist interwar organization which was supported by Masaryk. Masaryk's wife Charlotte translated John Stuart Mill's Subjection of Women into Czech. Unfortunately, I don't have many English sources (but can give plenty in Czech). However, you can find the gist of Masaryk's opinions on women's emancipation the the article T.G.Masaryk: A Radical Feminist (1991) written by Gordon H. Skilling, published in Cross Currents. This article is available on the web: http://en.scientificcommons.org/26569586

I hope this was helpful. I've never worked on Wiki, so I'm reluctant to change or add things on my own.

- Majoranka —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.179.210.213 (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

What kind of vandalism did you identify on this article?

I am curious of what kid of vandalism you are talking about. But I´m just affraid that you don´t have much relevant to say about the topic, do you?--Nmate (talk) 13:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully, I do not have to fill a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring only because you keep reverting without engaging in discussion. --Nmate (talk) 09:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

We are still waiting when you stop revert warring and instead propose the changes you want to make on this talk page and discuss them to reach consensus. Remember that since it is you who wants changes to be made against the long-term consensus version of the lead section ([1]), the onus to argue your point is on you, not the other way round. None of your two posts above addresses any points of your proposed edits, so there was so far no discussion for anybody else to engage in. The ball is on your side.—Emil J. 19:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Clean up

I did some work on this article, but I see areas that still need improvement. In no particular order:

fix overlinking

structure-- for example, the "Education" section includes details about marriage and other phases of his life; fix paragraphs so that the meaning/logic/aim flows from one sentence to the next, not simply mushed together

length -- to be honest, I haven't read all the way through (I just started at the beginning), but it seems too long

lists-- I deleted the list of places that he stayed while in exile, but, for one, I did not yet touch the list of places he visited while president. If there's no reason to highlight any particular place, there's no reason in include it.

I don't know why a family tree is included

One other point, there's no indication why the spelling of his last name differs from his father's. Jkgree (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 27 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to Tomáš Masaryk. There is universal agreement that the current full name fails WP:COMMONNAME, which leaves the originally proposed T.G. and alternative Tomáš as possible targets. I'm inclined to agree with the majority's apparent gut feeling (amplified by the 2005 discussion at the top of the page) that the latter is more recognizable (quote, I've never heard him referred to verbally as TG Masaryk) No such user (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk → T. G. Masaryk – Most common variation of the name in English-language print sources, per NGRAMS[2] From Google Scholar, English-only results since 2000 we get:

• 2770 for "T. G. Masaryk" (includes "TG Masaryk")
• 1490 for "Tomáš Masaryk"
• 1320 for "Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk"
• 1100 for "Thomas Masaryk" (includes results for another guy, Thomas J. Masaryk MD[3])

(t · c) buidhe 04:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:28, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose with Tomáš more recognisable either way than TG In ictu oculi (talk) 16:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree that "Tomáš Masaryk" would be preferable to the current name as it's more common (according to both NGRAMS and Google Scholar) than the current article title. (t · c) buidhe 18:49, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support Tomáš Masaryk. Clear common name and already redirects here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
  • According to the evidence presented above, it's not the common name at all, let alone the "clear common name". Perhaps you have some other evidence? (t · c) buidhe 20:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Rjensen (talk) 12:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support Tomáš Masaryk would be more preferable Vacant0 (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support both, lean towards TG Masaryk. This is based on the GScholar hits:

• "Tomáš Masaryk" gives ~3,340 hits
• T.G. Masaryk gives ~13,300
• "Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk" gives ~5,510 hits

Honestly I'm pretty surprised by this as I've never heard him referred to verbally as TG Masaryk but the hits and NGRams don't lie (well, they do, but not by that much). FOARP (talk) 19:36, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.