Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heron programming language/Disputed phase
Current tally (at time of re-listing) 5 keep (excluding suspected sockpuppets), 7 delete. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 22:51, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Comment: I dispute Graham's count of the number of deletes and keeps. I didn't count the first time contributors. I still strongly dispute the characterization of these people as sock puppets. It is rude and incorrect.
- delete -> WileE
- delete -> StevieTheMan
- keep -> Cutler
- delete -> Ambibalynsteria
- keep -> Spectatrix
- keep -> AndrewA
- delete -> Jeeves
- keep -> Jamesday
- keep -> Jerzy
- keep -> sjc
- delete -> Geogre
- delete -> Fastfission
- delete -> Starx
This adds up to 7 deletes and 6 keeps as of July 17, is there contention here? Christopher Diggins 01:32, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Ok I missed one, 6 keep it is. Hardly surprising one was missed considering the mish mash of discussion above; besides I would encourage any sysop going to decide consensus next time to recount all of the votes anyway and decide for themselves whether the three in question are sockpuppets or not. Incidentally the reason why these are suspected sockpuppets is because new users don't generally make a vote on this page their first edit here. It's a possibility, which is why they're suspected sockpuppets. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 17:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Did Wile E not already make the point that Skrud and Kriggs were clearly not sock puppets? As he pointed out they are people who link to Heron from their personal web pages [[1]] and [[2]]. They learned about Heron at a seminar at Concordia and started discussing Heron at Skrud's forum where I found them and started a new discussion group [[3]], GedB is also a regular at Joel on Software forum who got interested in Heron as a result of a discussion at [[4]]. Nonetheless this is all moot because isn't the policy to not count first time contributors? The reason they came here was because of the following posts I made at [[5]] Christopher Diggins 22:06, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Hmm? Skrud and I are long time fans of wikipedia, and I for one have made contributions to wikipedia. The only way I could be called into question is if you linking me here gives an unfair leverage for the "Keep" side. Kriggs 05:29, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Did Wile E not already make the point that Skrud and Kriggs were clearly not sock puppets? As he pointed out they are people who link to Heron from their personal web pages [[1]] and [[2]]. They learned about Heron at a seminar at Concordia and started discussing Heron at Skrud's forum where I found them and started a new discussion group [[3]], GedB is also a regular at Joel on Software forum who got interested in Heron as a result of a discussion at [[4]]. Nonetheless this is all moot because isn't the policy to not count first time contributors? The reason they came here was because of the following posts I made at [[5]] Christopher Diggins 22:06, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep, I don't think it is particularly notable but there are a lot of programming languages of similarly low notability with articles, I don't want to delete them all and I don't want to vote for a precedent that would justify deleting them all. —Stormie 02:09, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Stormie brings up a good point. I would be completely justified and supported with historical precedent if I took follow-up actions upon a delete vote to challenge the rather large number of languages using the same arguments presented here. The debates surrounding Heron arose for several reasons: I mistakenly created a false user page, I ignorantly created a so-called vanity page, I expressed criticism of wikipedia, I was argumentative and protestive. My point in protesting, and being uncooperative was that an encyclopedia should be built upon a fair and consistent application of rules towards each entry, rather than an emotional reaction.Christopher Diggins 01:32, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. I feel that a programming language needs a history and impact in the field in some way. Heron has neither. -- Solitude 02:26, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. Christopher, Kriggs, Ged Byrne, and DrSkrud: if the Heron programming language is significant, others will come later and add it to the Wikipedia. But this is not the right place to advertise your project. It's not aggressive self-promotion that makes a language popular, but utility. If your language has it, then it'll get an article here one day, written by some engineer who used your language to implement some mission-critical functionality and would be glad to tell the world why Heron was so cool. Please stop doing this. --Ardonik 04:00, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Please stop doing what? I am contributing to a conversation. I made an entry, and I am allowed to dispute the arguments put forth towards its deletion. The mission-critical argument would invalidate the large majority of current entries in the list of programming languages. Christopher Diggins 01:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Stop doing what? Obviously, I'm asking you to stop the agressive self-promotion and Wikipedia-equivalent of carpetbagging that you've done here on the VfD, discussed extensively above. My advice is to let this whole thing go; Heron will survive without a Wikipedia article. --Ardonik 03:42, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
- It is unfair to characterize me as a spammer and being "aggressively self-promotional". Contributing to this discussion does little to promote Heron. Christopher Diggins 18:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Stop doing what? Obviously, I'm asking you to stop the agressive self-promotion and Wikipedia-equivalent of carpetbagging that you've done here on the VfD, discussed extensively above. My advice is to let this whole thing go; Heron will survive without a Wikipedia article. --Ardonik 03:42, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
- Please stop doing what? I am contributing to a conversation. I made an entry, and I am allowed to dispute the arguments put forth towards its deletion. The mission-critical argument would invalidate the large majority of current entries in the list of programming languages. Christopher Diggins 01:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Keep.It doesn't seem unlikely that someone would hear about Heron in the "real world". Several sources referring to it have been noted. It is also reasonable to think that someone hearing about the language would come to Wikipedia to learn more about it, owing to our good coverage of programming languages (and tech topics in general). The article needs more editors apart from the creator, but that is true for many articles and does not warrant deletion. David Remahl 08:14, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)- Delete. After a second review, I agree that the language is neither mature nor notable enough to warrant an article. David Remahl 12:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. As of now the language is not established. When the language has been used for production, teaching, or research then somebody other than the author should and will probably make an entry. Thue | talk 14:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- production, teaching, research as requirements would invalidate a large number of previous articles. Christopher Diggins 01:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep - Wikipedia is not that selective, and has plenty of room. --Ezra Wax 04:02, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete - clicking through various links, the blogs mentioned above, etc etc, I must commend the author of the language for writing it, and continuing to work on it. On the other hand, I don't see it as noteable (YET), and thereby I do not see it as deserving an article. And just to counter the already breathed arguement "but lots of non-noteable languages have articles". Bring them on. I'll vote to delete. Lyellin 10:20, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep Frankly there is a lot more stuff worthy of deletion than this, over and above minority programming languages. I think we could probably, for example, remove any number of articles about Middle Earth and its confabulated ancillary bs as being less worthy of note than what looks to be an honest and serious endeavour to create a new programming language and to bring it to public attention. If, however, over time, the Heron programming language dead ends, then it will no longer require an article, and it will die a quiet death in any case. As a subject this probably isn't worth the amount of time and attention that is being paid to it. Live with the article in my view, and move on, maybe revisit the situation in a few months. Sjc 10:32, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Sjc has already voted. Christopher Diggins 18:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Lol, so I have; that would be my wife (who is my reverse sock puppet, i.e. we frequently share my account). Mea culpa Sjc 04:07, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Sjc has already voted. Christopher Diggins 18:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Comment: The following are some programming language listings that are also deserving of being included in the VfD according to the arguments presented here, which should in all fairness be put under the same scrutiny as Heron: A plus plus, BuildProfessional, ChucK, Escapade, Frink, F Sharp programming language, Godiva programming language, Groovy programming language, ICI Programming Language, Io programming language, Joy programming language, Joule programming language, Kogut programming language, Kvikkalkul programming language, LYaPAS programming language, Malbolge programming language, Mercury programming language, MOO programming language, Nice programming language, Nosica programming language, Nial programming language, Nemerle, Pike programming language, Pizza programming language, [[Processing (programming language)], Q programming language, Revolution programming language, Scala, SuperCollider programming language, Unlambda, Var'aq, Whitespace (programming language), XOTcl, Z programming language, ZZT-oop Christopher Diggins 18:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Just FYI, several of these languages you mention are good examples of why yours shouldn't be included yet. ZZT was widely-known and distributed in its day, and its OO language was very interesting at the time. Pike has been used in a number of projects, including DreamSNES, the SNES emulator for the Sega Dreamcast. Thousands of people have seen the Pike logo from that project alone. MOO code has been around since 1990 and has had various successes and failures; LambdaMOO remains the major testament to its power. I have heard of Godiva in the context of Icon as well. Those are just off the top of my head. I haven't actually looked at any of those links. Jeeves 22:27, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. See Wikipedia:No original research. You can nominate the other languages for deletion as well, if you like. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:17, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
- Is it original research, though? The information in the article is available in the official language documentation. David Remahl 21:11, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. --Gary D 23:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Delete, promotional, vanity. Unless much better evidence is provided that the language is of encyclopedic importance--e.g. that the language is in actual use for significant non-experimental projects, or is currently being taught in academic courses, or has been the subject of papers in recognized journals. I've just been Googling and looking for hits that did not obviously refer back to the http://www.heron-language.com/ site. I finally thought I had hit paydirt with polymorphism without class inheritance beginning "I am presenting a talk at Concordia University in Montreal next week, on how the Heron programming language provides object polymorphism without class inheritance through the use of interfaces..." It turned out to be a talk by Christopher Diggins. The argument that we have other articles that may merit deletion does not seem to me to be a weighty reason for keeping this one. Wikipedia has no interest in being the first to publish something or in "scooping" other sources. When and if Heron catches on the article can always be resubmitted. Has Heron ever been discussed in Slashdot? (Click, click) Apparently not. If the author were to submit an article on Heron to Slashdot and it were to be published, I'd change my vote to "keep." Dpbsmith 23:10, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)