Talk:Die Walküre

Comment

Someone correctly observed that the article on Die Walküre should have the umlaut in the article's title, but made the mistake of doing it with a cut and paste rather than with "Rename this article" as described in Wikipedia:How to rename (move) a page. That has been fixed, but sorry, your user name got lost in the shuffle. --Jerzy 08:22, 2004 Jan 12 (UTC)

Well, as the entry "Die Walküre" previously had two edits on it (both from February 2003) and moving the article was not allowed. Hence having to resort to cut and paste. -- Mic 08:54, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)

If the previous edits are significant enough to retain (not the case here IIRC), then a developer can do a merger. But there is no reason to sacrifice a coherant history of the text in order to keep track of the sequence of redirects.

The situation you describe does indeed disallow the move w/o the intervention of a sysop/admin, which in my experience can hold you up as much as a half hour.

Let's review the documentation on this, including the path from Main Page, in which your input on what about the docs led you that direction should be especially valuable. (I don't want you to feel bad; this isn't peculiar to you!) And thanks for calling attention to the feasibility, and the neglect, of the title change. --Jerzy 13:43, 2004 Jan 12 (UTC)

The Name of the Sword

I have changed the name of the sword, in the place where it is introduced, from Balmung (Nibelungenlied) to Nothung (The Ring). As "Not" means emergency or need in German, the following words ("which evokes the dire need, for a weapon against Hunding") now make more sense, and it agrees with two further references below to Nothung.--John 11:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Orchestration

Would it be possible to include a mention of the orchestra used for this music drama (and other works by Wagner)? Does anyone know how large the orchestras were for Wagner's music dramas?

They are famously large, especially for his later works (from the start of the Ring Cycle). Wagner was a gifted conductor himself and he expanded the range and power of the orchestra within opera. It's probably fair to say that he influenced not just operatic orchestration but the very idea of what a "complete" symphony orchestra should comprise and sound like. The work of Mahler, Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Stravinsky and many modern composers would have sounded very different without the push for larger and weightier orchestras argued and supported by Wagner. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 10:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Renaming

Per Wikipedia guidelines of giving an article its most common name in English (WP:UE), is there support to move this article to The Valkyrie? --Elonka 19:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

For operas, books, etc. the convention is that the English translation is only used when it is most commonly known in translation. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas) and also Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera. Fireplace 19:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer (I don't do much opera work on Wikipedia). I agree though, it makes sense to title the article based on whatever the most common performance title is. --Elonka 20:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Libretto

I included a “real” libretto rather tan a “mere” description of each act and adding an introduction introducing this second opera of the Tetralogy Cycle. One can apprehend the entire opera reading the synopsis and can get an idea of the whole work with the Intro summarizing what happened in the first - Das Reihngol - and a few historical composition facts with History section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reiko-chin (talk • contribs) 10:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Apples of Eternal Youth

From the first paragraph of the introduction; "...he refused to part with Freia, who provides the gods with the apples of eternal youth." I thought it was the goddess Idunn who provided those apples, not Freia. Lily20 (talk) 18:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

There's mention of Wagner and the Ring at Idunn#Modern_influence. --GuillaumeTell 21:58, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Fafner doesn't use the Tarnhelm!!!

Fafner transformes into a dragon but not with the Tarnhelm. After killing Fafner Siegfried goes in the Neidhöhle, and from that place he take the Ring and the Tarnhelm. That shows that Fafner can not wear the Tarnhelm during the battle against Siegfried. In Wagner`s sources the giant Fafnir transformes himself also without the Tarnhelm. I will change that in the article, but write it at first here because on many other web pages one can read that Fafner use the Tarnhelm but it`s wrong. The only thing Fafner wants is sleep and own the Hort; he wouldn't use anything of it. (Excuse the false, I'm German and my English isn't that great.)--Operalistener (talk) 11:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Infobox.

Infoboxes should be added after discussion on talkpage. No discussion took place here. I don't think the box very appropriate. Have removed it pending further discussion. I am flagging the issue at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner. --Smerus (talk) 10:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Die Walküre/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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B class (62 points). This article is similar in quality to Das Rheingold. As with the other article, I have 'credited' it with the information in the three Ring articles (Der Ring des Nibelungen, Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the text, Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the music). It could benefit from: German first lines included as appropriate in the synopsis. Also, 'Noted excerpts' integrated into the synopsis. A section on the critical reaction to the opera A full discography including historic recordings Sources and references (actually missing here) -- Kleinzach 00:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Agreed. Comments as per Kleinzach. --GuillaumeTell 10:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Low Start 38/100. I disagree with the above reviewers on fully crediting the contents of the other articles. WP:Summary makes it clear that a summary of the information should be included here as well as the more detailed analysis elsewhere. Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc. 6/15: Most of these points are credited for the link to the composition articles, but the mention of Volsunga saga also credited. The detailed information belongs in the composition articles, but I would expect at least start and end dates. The lead section is also meant to be a summary, so I would expect the opera's role in the Ring cycle as a whole to be mentioned. Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of roles 5/15. I would expect discussion on how Ludwig put it on against Wagner's wishes and how often this opera gets performed outside the context of the Ring. List of roles 4/5. Description of who is whose child, sibling or spouse would improve this. Synopsis 6/10. I would mention that Wotan is aware of Hagen's birth. But there is information here that really belongs in a music section and the key numbers should be highlighted here as commented above. Notable arias etc. 4/5. List looks fairly full but I know that Brunnhilde's Act 2 Hoyotoho gets applauded on the Naxos Met set. I've got a box of early recordings of excerpts, so I'll see which bits are listed there. As indicated above, this list should be embedded in the synopsis. I have the words "Fricka" and "Cavatina" in my head. Critical opinion/discussion of the music. 4/15 The former isn't really covered at all. Musical illustrations would also help. Recordings 0/10 not mentioned. There are some recordings of the opera separate from complete cycles. I think in the long term, there may be a full discography of the Ring including separate operas, but something should be mentioned here. Illustrations, including musical illustrations 6/10. It's good to have the Rackhams. However, I would suggest a picture of Wagner at the time he was working on the Ring and maybe pictures from the first production. I note the link to a website, but an illustration of the mentioned leitmotifs would help. Inline references, notes, sources, external links 3/10. A good selection of links. No sources or references mentioned. --Peter cohen 10:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Further to discussion at WT:Richard Wagner I am downgrading this article to Start as the views expressed there are that information from other articles should not be assumed.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 13:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

More modern version of Ride of the Valkyries

I uploaded a version of Ride of the Valkyries performed by U of Chicago orchestra and distributed under creative commons 3.0, I expected to stay even though there is no performance date, it was obtained from here. Should we have it replace the 1921 version? It is of higher quality. Rybkovich (talk) 01:19, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

No objections from me. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

To me the older version flows allot nicer than the newer, plus due to copyright there is a theme emerging in the excerpts subsection - all recorded pre 1923, so I am into keeping the older version. I added the modern to the earlier one up on the Ride of the Valkyries article. Rybkovich (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Image notes/descriptions

I've copied this discussion from my talk page, so other interested editors can voice their opinion.

I don't think the pictures would benefit from any more detailed descriptions. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:32, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for forwarding the discussion to here. I think the pictures serve an informational rather than a purely aesthetic purpose. Because it is not just a background to the article's content, its relationship to the content needs to be clear. It can be argued that there is already sufficient info in the set design pic and Hoffman's name is extra info that can be reached through the description in the file. However, the information regarding the source of the picture of Hunding killing Siegmund is necessary. Is it another set design? Was it included in a libretto? No it is from a 19th century magazine, a necessary fact for a description that serves its purpose. My proposal for the description at the bottom of the pic to be: Hunding kill Siegmund, Illustrirten Zeitung, Leipzig 1876. Rybkovich (talk) 07:49, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

If you want to mention the set designer from 1876, it should be written as Josef Hoffmann. I notice there is a colorised version, File:Josef Hoffman - Die Walküre.jpg. Further, the name of the magazine is Illustrirte Zeitung – no "n". But that picture is rather poor and the article wouldn't lose anything if it were omitted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Good point re Hoffman's work. Rybkovich (talk) 16:07, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I made some edits per discussion above, Pics are now bigger. There is now some subsection overlap by the pics. This should not be a problem as I plan to add text to the Acts subsections. Eventually the Brunnhilde pleading pic will not be creeping into the Noted Excerpts section. Rybkovich (talk) 07:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

March 17 edits

I undid the revision of @Markhh: which deleted a number of contributions made by two editors. I expanded the article while @Schissel: took time to go over and correct the edits. There was key information missing from the version that you restored: Ash tree, the fact that Siegfried was wounded and exhausted and collapsed as he came in, the intimate connection that emerges in the conversation between the twins, also there was no citation to the quote used in the previous version. The corrections I made all added to the already provided info, no previous additions (aside from the quote without a citation) were deleted. We can discuss my contributions here and how to improve them here. Rybkovich (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

No doubt, Schissel’s edits were more thoughtful than mine, but aside from any writing errors my concern is more general. The synopsis, I believe, should be a general overview of the setting, plot, characters and major conflicts of the story. It should be written so that some one who has no prior knowledge of the piece can read it with ease and come away with a sense of what it’s about. A synopsis need not include every detailed plot point, concept and bit of business. In fact it shouldn’t because it then becomes mired in detail that makes it difficult or impossible to understand for a reader who just wants the basics. Cheers, Markhh (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I looked through several synopsis(es? si?) online and in my records, Met's is very brief, the versions I have at home are a lot more detailed, it could be because prior to seeing the opera live you would not need as much info re context - giant tree in the middle of the house, character collapsing on the floor, as you would if you are just listening to it. Maybe with an article we are somewhere in the middle - we don't need as much detail re context like someone who is listening at home, but we do need more info than the synopsis prior to the performance. I will look keep this in mind when adding more info to acts II and III. Rybkovich (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Noted Excerpts Section

Hi @Markhh: @Schissel: @Michael Bednarek: and all other editors working on this. I uploaded audio files corresponding to each title in the section. Since we have the same info listed twice I propose something like the audio files listed in Enrico Caruso and try to make it clearer than how it is in Caruso.Rybkovich (talk) 22:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think a gallery of audio files is a good idea, neither here nor at Caruso. There, the list ought to be trimmed to his most famous recordings, possibly one only. The rest is available at Commons:Category:Audio files of classical music by Enrico Caruso – that's the purpose of Wikimedia. Here, the audio files could be spread throughout the synopsis, and the section "Noted excerpts" should be removed as arbitrary. Further, we don't have to show every available audio file – editorial judgement may well omit some. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, I think that siedel's grand fantasy would actually be a good example as it has all the main themes, even though its all horns. File:Arthur Siedel, Grand Fantasie (pastiche from Die Walküre, 2000).ogg. All of Wotan's long solos could be left out. Rybkovich (talk) 05:18, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• Die Walkure Spring Song French Wagner.ogg
• Die Walküre - Brunhilde warns Siegmund about his death act 2.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Article expansion

The article is being expanded and improved in stages, as part of an overall project to improve all the Ring-related articles. Apologies to readers while the article remains in a half-cooked state. Things will get better. Brianboulton (talk) 22:53, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Fricka's reason

I may be misremembering, but I thought that the reason Fricka demands that that Siegmund and Sieglinde be punished is for breaking the rules of hospitality, not really "for their adultery and incest". -- 208.81.184.11 (talk) 22:26, 13 September 2019 (UTC)