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RE: A few Notes on Quakers

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A "birthright Quaker" is someone from a long line of Quakers on both sides of the family. Richard is frequently referred to as a "birthright" Quaker, but to be correct we do not want to say he is unless he is registered as such with the Arba Friends Meeting. With one parent being of Quaker lineage and one not, this would be exceptional. In the strictest traditional Quaker meetings, songs are not sung or accompanied on instruments during worship. Worship time is for the most part silent time. Each person approaches worship in their own way. People rise to speak or pray as moved by the Spirit. This raises the question of where Richard got his early exposure to "Christian music"--the traditional hymns of the Church. Quakers don't baptize or practice other sacraments practiced in many denominations. Richard claimed he was baptized in the third grade. The question arises: in what church was he baptized, since Quakers don't practice baptism? Richard was baptized in the church of his father's family, the Independent Christian Church. Quakers are extremely amenable to and respectful of individuals' religious preferences and experiences. They do not discontinue association with those who embark on a spiritual journey that leads to other church affiliations. As his mother pointed out in discussing his later interest in Catholicism, his Quaker background would have only encouraged him to find commonality with other faiths. Smith addresses this in his book.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.100.63 (talk) 08:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently Richard modeled the Kid Brothers on Francis' vows: however, the brothers were exploring how to interpret those vows in the modern day. Richard's "poverty" was more economic simplicity, to be technically correct. Unlike St Francis, he did own personal possessions. He owned a modest real estate property in Nashville, his jeep, his instruments, his personal belongings, etc. "Homeless Man" is not a literal description of Richard, but more an expression conveying his poverty of spirit. His trustees issued him the salary of the average American every year. That is poverty relative to the income of a highly successful musician, but relative to the income of a struggling artist, it is wealth. He also had the privelege of allocating funding to his favorite causes, which greatly gratified him. A strict vow of poverty would have prevented him from doing this.

His idea of chastity was directed toward loving others purely, as God does, without expecting anything in return. Marriage or not was not an issue for the Kid Brothers.

His idea of obedience. . . would have perhaps been unfamiliar to St. Francis. He had not converted to the Catholic Church by the time of his death, so he was not able to be "obedient" during his lifetime in the strictest sense. As Protestants, The Kid Brothers would have had to re-interpret this vow in order to carry it out. Richard's Quaker upbringing, which maintains we must follow our "inner light", may have helped him bridge this ecumenical gap.

He was very focused on being true to himself and his relationship with God. He constantly balanced his actions against own inner sense of what is right; in that sense, obedience was important to him. But it's a pretty far cry from traditional monastic obedience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.100.63 (talk) 11:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience

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OK Folks, There is no record of Mullins taking vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. "Sources" that have been offered are referring to St. Francis of Assisi (sp?) taking those vows, NOT Mullins. This article also states that the kid brothers of St. Frank all took these vows, but Beaker is married. I also recall Mullins having a girlfriend if I remember correctly, and he wrote the song "The River" which would suggest chastity was not for him. Please stop adding incorrect information to this article. I'll keep removing it until we get a source, but I don't think we're going to find one because it just isn't true.

There is reference to this in the Homeless Man documentary. One of the kids that participated mentions it. You can catch it on you tube.

Chastity for single people refers to abstinence, for married people its fidelity.

And - not disagreeing - but the logic that he wrote "The River" suggesting singleness wasn't for him is silly. People change. 20: Countdown remember Rich mullins has plenty of direct quote from him about how he came to the point of believing that he was going to be single for the later part of his life.

It also has several quotes from him suggesting that he would have embraced marriage if the right girl had come along, as does "An Arrow Pointing to Heaven". Th3073ch (talk) 00:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you do a search for "rich mullins vow of poverty," you come up with hundreds of articles saying that he did in fact take a vow of poverty. Where is this info coming from if it isn't true? Some pages seem to be copies of wikipedia, but most are not. Here are some that are not.
I also found the following statement. Did Bordeaux make this statement as the last article claims?

Keith Bordeaux, who worked with Mullins promoting his albums and scheduling tours, says Mullins always said that he admired St. Francis immensely, but was "too wimpy" to join the Franciscan Brotherhood. Bordeaux wrote in a statement shortly after Mullins’ death that Mullins had taken "unofficial" vows of poverty, obedience, and chastity. He and his friend, Beaker, began an informal group they called the Kid Brothers of St. Frank where they mentored young musicians to live simply and to glorify God through their music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.66.143.175 (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two of Mullins close friends, musician Tom Booth and Catholic speaker and author Mary Beth Bonacci have verified that Rich Mullins did, in fact, tell them that he and the Kid Brothers each took informal vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. 68.12.172.182 (talk) 06:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RE: NPoV

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Where is it in this article? Sontra 22:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

---

Does anyone know where the biographical information for this article came from? Jason.ingalls 19:43, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Re; question

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Regarding your question about the source for this page. Most of this was probably taken from one of the linked websites. The language is familiar - it may be from one of the CCM articles about Rich after his death. There isn't really anything on this page that I haven't seen before. I can tell you that several of the quotes are from the Lufkin, Texas concert that is available on video. (By the way, I was at that concert.) I came to this site because I caught the tail end of a discussion thread about this on the Rich Mullins discussion group. Do you know what they are up in arms about? Martymar 01:42, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC) ____


  • Thanks! I'm not sure why that group would be up in arms. Could you send along the link so I could take a look? -J. Ingalls 02:19, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

Discography

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Some of those relases are compilations and should be separated or identified in some way as compilations. --Walter Görlitz 21:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes

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A source for the quotes would be good. Coffeeboy 20:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

here in america

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who has recored the album "here in america" released in 2003? Martious 21:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No Kansas?

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As someone who went to church with Rich, and spoke with him on occasion, I was surprised to find no mention in this article of his love for Kansas and the area around Wichita, including the flint hills... However, I don't have any sources for this other than my own conversations with him. His song "calling out your name" is all about this, and the ending shots for his music video "creed" pretty much communicate his affection for the area. Anyone else have any books or anything that mention this? ----Steve 22:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I read a lot of music transcripts about his love for Kansas. Check them out at www.kidbrothers.net.

Step By Step

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This article keeps getting changed from referring to "Step By Step" (performed on The World As Best... volume 1) with the reason that Mullins didn't write it. It should not be changed unless the context of the statement is changed. As it stands it doesn't try to purport that Mullins wrote both songs, or even that they were his biggest hits, only that those are the ones for which he "is best known".

This was changed again. It's not a mistake. "Step By Step" is the title of the praise chorus. "Sometimes By Step" was written later and incorporated the same chorus, and although the latter may have received more radio airtime, the original chorus is still far more widely known, particularly in the context of the statement as it stands. Please don't change it back. HokieRNB 17:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that mistaken edit, Hokie. I should have checked the discussion page first, but was completely unaware that the chorus was separate from the song and just assumed a wrong title. I modified it again in a way that should clarify the difference and prevent future mistaken edits like mine. It might need further modification for clarity though, as the link for "Awesome God" points to the page for the song rather than to one specific to the chorus. -- Aubee91 (talk) 00:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Collaborations

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Rich Mullins sang (and maybe played guitar/maybe co-wrote the song?) on the Hokus Pick song 'I Believe' from their album Brothers from Different Mothers. I'm not sure where to integrate this into the article.

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The external link "Obituary at Catholic World News" is no longer valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.253.124.99 (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conversion to Catholicism?

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The statement "At the time of his death, Rich was planning to convert to Roman Catholicism." appears to be in significant dispute.

The only biography of Rich's life, "An Arrow Pointing to Heaven" says,

Though Rich was drawn to Catholicism, he had trouble with some of its teachings. He went through seven months of catechism, but in the end he chose not to convert.[1]

and quotes his sister, Debbie,

A lot of people ask if he was becoming Catholic. I tell them he wasn't becoming anything but God's.[2]

It also directly quotes Rich,

A lot of the stuff which I thought was so different between Protestants and Catholics [was] not, but at the end of going through an RCIA [Right of Christian Initiation for Adults] course, I also realized that there are some real and significant differences. I'm not sure which side of the issues I come down on. My openness to Catholicism was very scary to me because, when you grow up in a church where they don't even put up a cross, many things were foreign to me. I went to an older Protestant gentleman that I've respected for years and years, and I asked him, "When does faithfulness to Jesus call us to lay aside our biases and when does it call us to stand beside them?" His answer to me was that it is not about being Catholic or Protestant. It is about being faithful to Jesus. The issue is not about which church you go to, it is about following Jesus where He leads you.[3]

What's the best way to correct this to recognize the dispute? Th3073ch (talk) 01:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe just with a simple explanation that he had considered conversion followed by "On the topic Mullens stated:" and the long third quote encapsulated in one of the quotation templates like cquote. That way he speaks for himself, which - like a picture, is worth 1000 words of commentary. Dan, the CowMan (talk) 06:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above quote originated from an article in the Catholic Register in April 1997 and was quoted in part by James Bryan Smith in his book, “An Arrow Pointing to Heaven.” However, the last few sentences of this quote by Rich Mullins are missing here, and they should be added because they are relevant to the topic, and they change the entire significance of the quote.

Please add these sentences to the above quote.

“If God leads you to the Catholic Church, follow Him. So, the last couple of years now, I have been in Limbo about the whole thing. For me, it all comes down to the Eucharist. Is it really Jesus and is He present there? I think, after some pretty honest searching, I’ve come to a few dead ends that I am not going to be able to bridge by getting more information. It will just require a little more faith on my part, and it is not there yet.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.175.131 (talk) 05:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A quick references section, make comments on this topic above it

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  1. ^ An Arrow Pointing to Heaven, James Bryan Smith, p54
  2. ^ An Arrow Pointing to Heaven, James Bryan Smith, p55
  3. ^ Radio Interview with Artie Terry, "The Exchange," WETN, Wheaton, Ill., April 1997, quoted in An Arrow Pointing to Heaven, James Bryan Smith, p54

There is significant evidence that Rich Mullins had indeed made definite plans to convert to the Catholic Church at the time of his death. This link http://richmullinspirituality.blogspot.com/p/letter-from-father-matt.html?spref=bl <ref> details a letter from his Catholic spiritual director, Fr. Matt McGuinness that Rich had made an appointment with (now) Archbishop Paul Coakley to make a general confession of his life on Saturday, Sept. 20, 1997, the day after his death, and he was scheduled to receive the Catholic sacraments of Confirmation and First Communion on Sunday, Sept. 21, 1997 at the Newman Center at Wichita State University. Archbishop Coakley has publicly confirmed that this is true, and no one is disputing these facts. Also, during the last couple weeks of his life, while Mullins was staying at the home of the Kruse family in Elgin Illinois, he told Mrs. Kruse and other members of the family of his plans to convert to Catholicism. According to Peter Kruse, "Rich spent the last 3 weeks of his life at my parent's house. He told us he was becoming Catholic. My mom asked if Rich would worship Mary now. He dryly and sarcastically responded, "Yes"." http://richmullinspirituality.blogspot.com/2011/02/would-rich-mullins-have-become-catholic.html <ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.175.131 (talk) 04:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your addition was removed for copyright reasons. Also, the primary sources would not be enough. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All of the primary sources - Fr. Matt McGuinness, Archbishop Paul Coakley and Peter Kruse are still living. You could contact them if you needed to verify what they have said and written publicly about Rich Mullins' conversion to Catholicism. Another reference would be Dr. Scott Hahn, the American theologian who assisted and Mullins privately in his conversion process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.175.131 (talk) 19:35, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how WP:RS works. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then please clarify for me how it works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.175.131 (talk) 05:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:RS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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"Step by Step" redux

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This song was originally written by Beaker and recorded by Rich, released under the title "Step by Step" on Volume 1 of "The World as Best as I Remember It". Although the later song that incorporated this praise chorus probably got more airplay, it is the original that is referenced here. HokieRNB 13:04, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Sometimes by Step" was released on the next album, The World as Best as I Remember It: Volume 2, and was a single. It was also released on the Songs compilation. "Step by Step" was not released as a single and does not appear on subsequent recordings. That is why it and not the earlier recording is referenced here. I agree that the chorus only is probably better know and the verses that were added to "Sometimes by Step" are likely unknown today. I recognize that it was already being sung as a chorus in some congregations when Vol. 2 was released, and the reprise on Vol. 2 only contains only the chorus. Since the sentence only reads "songwriter best known for his worship songs", I'll restore "Step by Step". Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:16, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And it does appear on subsequent recordings - most notably Awesome God: A Tribute to Rich Mullins (as performed by Caedmon's Call) and Songs 2. HokieRNB 21:09, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Thailand-Chinese border?

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There is no Thailand-Chinese border. Thailand says "Thailand is bordered to the north by Myanmar and Laos, to the east by Laos and Cambodia, to the south by the Gulf of Thailand and Malaysia, and to the west by the Andaman Sea and the southern extremity of Myanmar." Could some other country be meant? --GRuban (talk) 19:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could be. It could also be an error on the subject's part, but the reference should be corrected and the statement should be clarified. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Precise Manner of Death

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This article takes special care to specify that Mullins was already dead when he was struck by a semi, but then it links to two different newspaper stories that claim being hit by the semi was what killed him. Was he killed instantly after he was thrown from the jeep he was in, or was he killed by a truck strike after being thrown from the jeep? 2600:1700:8870:27C0:38B6:DDB2:BD59:85BD (talk) 18:12, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to his death certificate and autopsy, Mullins was killed instantly when he was thrown from the jeep. 68.12.172.182 (talk) 21:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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