Talk:Box Tunnel

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Brunel's birthday

This needs to be pinned down as either true or false -- after all, it's a simple mattter of fact. Unless we can find an expert, I say we send a delegation of Wikipedians to camp out in situ! ;-) -- Tarquin 17:31 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

As I said on Talk:Isambard Kingdom Brunel, I'm not hanging around in the middle of a high-speed railway line at any time of the day or year. Angus Buchanan, whom I quote in the article, is Emeritus Professor of the History of Technology at Bath, and is presumably contactable there. If you have access to an academic library, you may be able to read the correspondence in NCE that Buchanan mentions. I think one page I passed by while googling the question implied that the light shining down the tunnel would be murky at best with the diesel fumes (can't find it now). http://chemcomm1.clic.ac.uk/ticket_holders/b.html includes someone who claims to have seen the effect. Two things are certain: there's no proof that IKB did it deliberately, and the alignment of the tunnel is roughly in the right direction. --rbrwr

I've done a few back-of-the-envelope calculations, with help from Heavens Above and other sources, and I think that the sun must shine down the tunnel on one day or another in (approximately) the second week of April. Whether it is usually (or even ever) on the 9th, I don't know. Is there an astronomer in the house? --rbrwr

I'm not convinced. Partly because I've heard some academic whose name I wish I could remember saying it's a myth. Partly because it just smells of myth. And most of all -- if it's really true, why has no-one produced a photograph of it? -- Tarquin 18:19 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

I wish you could remember his name, too. Excellent question on the photograph, though. Here's one (alleged) answer and here's another. It might be worth searching out a collection of NCE. On the other hand this one gives a published source saying that it happens about a week later. Not that I believe anything I read on Usenet, y'know... --rbrwr 18:58 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

It was one of the lunchtime lectures I used to sometimes traipse along to when I was at University College London -- he was probably from the civil engineering department. Those usenet links are very tantalising...! -- Tarquin

A visit to Bristol reference library has left me none the wiser:

William Adams (ed) Encylopaedia of the great Western Railway ISBN 1-85260-329-1 says:

One of the two days in the year when the rising sun shines through the straight tunnel bore is close to Brunel's birthday, but does not coincide with it, despite the legend.

Muriel V. Searle Down the Line to Bristol ISBN 0-85936-188-8 quotes a contemporary source from 1842:

On Saturday the Box Tunnel presented a most splendid though singular appearance caused by the shining of the sun straight through it, and giving the walls a brilliancy, to use the expression of an eyewitness, "as though the whole tunnel had been made gilt."

April 9, 1842 was indeed a Saturday, though it's not clear that that is the day being referred to.

O.S. Nock Great Western in Colour ISBN 0-7137-0857-3 repeats the story without any proof, which isn't very useful to us. The newer edition of the Guinness Book of Railway Facts and Feats doesn't mention Box.

--rbrwr 15:27 Oct 6, 2002 (UTC)

At least this remembers that it would happen twice a year. It's often said it happens only on IKB's birthday, which is obviously false. (BTW, going by the analemma on my wee globe, the other day would be Sep 5, more or less.) Kwantus 23:03, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

Jeremy Clarkson, in his Great Britons programme on IKB, said that the "latest research" shows the effect is visible on April 6 - the only thing on the British railway network that arrives early. It's still just a rumour, though. --rbrwr

I went to the library of the UWE in Bristol and searched their collection of the New Civil Engineer as far back as 1992 without finding the photograph referred to here. Oh well, keep looking. --rbrwr

I've done the calculations, and the sun definately does not shine through the tunnel on his birthday. And it's not as simple as him omitting atmoshperic refraction either. I'm looking to finish an article that probably won't be published anywhere. If it is, I'll point to it from this article. Peter Maggs 17:09, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To quote from the article, "the sun subtends an angle of about half a degree, which is more than the year to year variation" (referring to the azimuth of the rising Sun on any particular day).

I can confirm this is the case. Using SkyMap Pro, an obsessively accurate astronomical program that takes account of many factors including precession and atmospheric effects, I plotted positions for the rising Sun on 9 April 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009. By graphically superimposing the four parallel tracks swept by the Sun's visible disc, it becomes evident that all four intersect, consistently sweeping a central band about 15 minutes of arc wide.

I have I diagram, which I am happy to share with anyone who wants to see it.

The linked post asserting that the birthday effect is impossible is plainly wrong. In my opinion, it should be more firmly dismissed in the text, and the repeated reference to it in the "External Links" section should be removed. Lycanthrope 21:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am interested to read this discussion. My father was a keen rail enthusiast and was greatly interested in IK Brunel. Sometime in the mid 70's there had been a landslide at Wooton Bassett and the line through Box was blocked. He went down to the tunnel on the date of Brunels birthday (access to the railway being easier in those days) to check the phenomenon for himself. He maintained until the end of his life that he observed the rising sun through the tunnel and in fact he did take some photographs, although the resulting slides were almost completely washed out by the rising sun. Azmo247 (talk) 09:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have received an email from David Needham, who writes (I have edited slightly):

I was talking to a guy whose parents live in the Box area. I told him about a photo I took in 1982 of the sun shining down the tunnel. It was my photo that the NCE used as a article photo, 4th April 1985.I thought I could find it on the net. I was very surprised that the world wide web does not have a copy of my photo on it, or the article.
That day, only one other guy turned up to see this so called myth actually happen as good as it will ever happen.
People are wasting their time trying to observe this in the modern day for several reasons.

H&S is too strict today to get on the lines

It has to be a Bank Holiday. The 6.00am train from Bristol fills the tunnel with diesel fumes 5 minutes before sunrise on other days.

It has to be a Bank Holiday when there are no clouds between Chippenham and London (like 1982)

The trees have to be culled on the right embankment on the East end (this happens about once every 20 years), the embankment blocks about 45% of the tunnel with no trees, with trees it is 90% blocked out.

This makes it a very rare occurrence, one which has rarely been observed.

9 April 1982 was Good Friday, by the way. If anyone wants to try to find the relevant issue of New Civil Engineer we now have a date - it was further back than I looked when I searched in 2002.

rbrwr ^± 12:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well done Rbrwr and David Needham for providing the reference in New Civil Engineer. A copy is in the British Library, although it is stored off-site and needs 48 hours advance notice to order up. In fact the photograph is part of a most comprehensive article by Martin Barnes, who publishes very clear calculations to show that the Sun definitely DOES NOT shine through the tunnel on IKB's birthday, although it can do so a couple of days earlier, and also in September. It is a pity that copyright prevents putting any of this in Wikipedia, although I may try and trace the publishers of NCE to see if anything can be done. The actual photograph shows a red glow at the eastern end of the tunnel - possibly a reflection from something - not bright enough to be the direct Sun

Peter Maggs 14:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Maggs (talk • contribs)

Here's an online ref: Box Railway Tunnel and I.K. Brunel's Birthday - a Theoretical Investigation by Atkins, C. P. in Journal of the British Astronomical Association, Vol. 95, NO.6/OCT, P.260, 1985. [1] Misalignment of the tunnel is approximately 1 degree, and full illumination can occur on April 7 (April 6 on leap years). The conclusion is: "These not insubstantial discrepancies from the actual alignment would suggest that there had been no deliberate attempt at Solar coincidence on Brunel's part." Meters (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think what is often forgotten is that if a straight tunnel is aligned so that it points above the horizon somewhere between about east and south east or west and south west then its pretty much inevitable that that the sun will shine through it on one day or another: the sun covers a rather large percentage of the sky over the course of the year. 212.159.44.170 (talk) 13:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Secret Tunnel... Conspiracy?

Am I the only one that considers the latter part of this article to be something of a conspiracy? Especially the end which basically equates to: "... which totally obscure the view of the tunnel".

While this might be fact, why is this relevant other than to support a conspiracy theory? Just wondering if this is acceptable or otherwise Worley-d 23:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see what your saying but it is actually true. Inside box tunnel is a vast nuclear bunker, see Hawthorn, Wiltshire Bailo26 3:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vent shafts

In my contribution of 20:14, 15 August 2008 I stated that a fourth ventilation shaft would be expected between the third one and the West portal but it is not visible in Google Earth and that "It may be obscured by shadows or it may have been covered over if it was deemed unnecessary with the advent of electrically powered trains". User 217.44.42.119 changed "electrically powered" to "diesel" which is *not* what I meant. Diesel powered trains still burn oxigen and produce exhaust gases which need to be vented. Only electric trains do not produce exhaust gases and would not need ventilation in long tunnels. I have reverted that change for this reason. What we need is someone who can confirm whether the fourth vent shaft is still in existence or has been covered over. GS3 (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for where any vent shafts might be, and how many there are? As it stands the section is speculative/ OR and liable for deletion as a result. From my assessment I think it more likely that there are only two vent shafts, rather than three, and the one that you've picked out inside the camp is related to the quarry and/ or the sub-surface military estate.

ALR (talk) 21:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The line is not (yet) electrified, so it is unlikely the owners of the line would have allowed changes in anticipation of electrification. I think speculation, without sources, about the number of vent shafts belongs on the talk page or in a discussion forum, not in the article. Perhaps you can find definitive information on Ordnance Survey maps, or in the archives of the Great Western Railway. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 13:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

East Portal

I have been looking at some old images of the East Portal online.

Brunel's sketches at http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.brunel200.com/images/great_western_railway/jpegs/great_western_railway_5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.brunel200.com/great_western_railway.htm&usg=__QlqBtGmHzxCwFgCp_gtMfxXqo_g=&h=271&w=199&sz=9&hl=en&start=100&sig2=eE68DK8mEaks7pFqehwFHA&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=SIUJ9I5rsnR8bM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbox%2Btunnel%2Bimages%26start%3D80%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=DgPFTO-LGozi4AaLzMG6Aw which shows that (as one might expect) he also intended the East Portal to be grand and Classical, if less so (because of restricted space) than the West.

I suggest that he did not originally intend the brick lining to come right to the entrance - this should be taller and lined by the rusticated stone, as in the upper sketch. Though the lining was there by c.1905, as shown in the photos at http://images.francisfrith.com/c10/450/45/51493.jpg and http://eshop.wiltshire.gov.uk/gallery/eshop/postcards/boxtunnel.jpg

Perhaps the strengthening was needed when the quarry branch was added?

On the basis of these images I wish to revise the opening paragraph slightly.

8474tim (talk) 04:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Defence Use

The old images mentioned above show that the quarry siding already existed at the turn of the century, so was not newly built in the 1930s as implied. See also http://www.aditnow.co.uk/cache/Box-Bath-Stone-Mine-Archive-Album/Box-Bath-Stone-Mine-Archive-Album-001.jpg and http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/images/strategic/box-tunnel.jpg (I assume that the Strategic Steam Reserve stuff is another Wiltshire hoax to go with ley lines, crop circles etc.)

8474tim (talk) 04:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tunnel drawings

In this collection of engineering drawings, this drawing is a useful illustration of the longitudinal cross-section of the tunnel to show its steepness and its relation to the landscape. As it is dated 7 July 1838, it must already be in the public domain. Can it be used in the article? cmɢʟee ☎✉ 12:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Construction

There isn't much information here about how the tunnel was constructed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.114.138 (talk) 11:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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New Theory

I have recently published the results of some research on the possibility of Brunel having deliberately aligned the tunnel to the morning sunrise on particular dates. The article can be seen here http://www.mirlibooks.com/isambards-gift.html I invite comments; editors may wish to link it to the main article. Peter Maggs 08:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Maggs (talk • contribs)

Just for the record I always sign my posts with 'Peter Maggs 15:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)' and I'm always told they are unsigned! Will someone tell me what I am doing wrong!!! Peter Maggs 15:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Maggs (talk • contribs)

I would guess your signature doesn't match the format that SineBot looks for when deciding to add the unsigned template. You can opt out by following the link to SineBot's user page and following the instructions there. --rbrwr ^± 12:16, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your .sig isn't linked (which is a requirement, AFAIR), it's just plain text. Andy Dingley 12:20, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

You are typing in a signature, but instead of that you need to type four tildes and Wikipedia will recognise them. Near the top of this page when in edit mode you get the message "and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes." and it shows you what tildes are. I can't include that here because it will convert them to my signature. Afterbrunel (talk) 09:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"We Need To Talk About Doreen", the 2nd episode of the 2nd series of McDonald & Dodds, turns more or less around the tunnel and the sunrise phenomenon. --Hodsha (talk) 21:37, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]