Talk:Countersteering

Turning Angle

I don't know where to put this comment, so I'm putting it at the end.

I ride a bicycle. The reason a cyclist turns left momentarily before navigating a right turn (as when turning right onto a side street) is to allow the cyclist to turn right in a wider arc than if he tried to follow the curb. Given that I skimmed portions of the article instead of reading every word, I didn't see this explained in quite this way, and I think it should be. I can't speak for motorcyclists, but cyclists use this maneuver to make their turns wider and more gentle, thereby remaining in control, which would be more difficult if taking a sharper turn. Indeed, a true 90-degree turn isn't even possible on any vehicle, whether it has 2 wheels or 4 wheels. -- Wikipedia-hating former member — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 07:11, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

No, that's just a way of increasing the turn radius, it's not what is meant by countersteering. To do the maneuver you're describing (a short left turn before a long right turn), you first need to countersteer RIGHT lightly to make the bike lean left and start the short left turn, then you countersteer LEFT more heavily to both upright the bike and then lean right, which will make the bike will turn right "by itself". Finally you countersteer RIGHT one last time to upright the bike after the turn. 81.229.78.249 (talk) 01:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Countersteering by weight shifting

This section makes no mention of the effect of trail. Some sport motorcycles have reduced trail, and on these bikes, attempting to countersteer by weight shifting only produces enough lean to perhaps change lanes on a road, but not enough to corner normally. This can be seen with the original Keith Code "No BS (body steering)" green sport bike, since it apparently had very little trail.

Keith Code No BS Bike

Rcgldr (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Intro - "The scientific literature does not provide a clear and comprehensive definition of countersteering."

How can a single reference claim that no scientific article exists that does provide a clear and comprehensive definition of countersteering? Rcgldr (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree. The physics are rather elementary. They are described in much more detail in [23]. I did not check the physics in the video but they sound correct. The article gives only an equation for the required leaning angle but does not describe the forces of the wheels; the video does. (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

How it works: "by every child"

Based on my experience and experimentation, I doubt that every child does this trick. The video [24] gives better (at least better-sounding) explanation of counter-steering and clearly states it is instable and something to learn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander.mitsos (talk • contribs) 04:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

That video has a major flaw. Since a motorcycle is a uni-track vehicle, there is no way to cause it to lean directly by weight shifting. Since it is a uni-track vehicle free to pivot left right about the contact patches, the center of mass of rider and bike do not move absent external forces: if the rider leans inwards, the bike leans outwards a bit. Due to steering geometry as explained in this Wiki article, that outwards lean of the bike cause the front tire to steer outwards, an indirect form of counter-steering. For normal counter-steering a rider applies an outwards torque onto the handlebars, and doesn't try to hold the handlebars in place. The outwards torque on the handlebars causes the bike to lean inwards, and the steering geometry will steer the front tire inwards as needed if the rider doesn't oppose it. Since the steering response to lean is designed to correct a lean and return the bike to vertical, the rider needs to continue to apply some outwards torque onto the handlebars to prevent the bike from returning to vertical and instead hold a lean angle. Rcgldr (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

A more general description of counter-steering

The article focuses on initiating lean from a vertical orientation, but somewhere it should generalize this for counter-steering while leaned, steer more inwards to lean less, steer less inwards to lean more. Rcgldr (talk) 08:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Counter-steering torque to maintain lean angle

Most bikes and motorcycles steering geometry tend to steer inwards enough to lessen lean angle and return to vertical. Mostly noticeable on a motorcycle, a rider has to apply some outwards torque on the handlebars to oppose this self-correction in order to hold a lean angle. If braking while leaned on many motorcycles, the braking force applied to the contact patch offset to the inside of the front tire also causes it to steer inwards, requiring the rider to apply more outwards torque on the handlebars to hold a lean angle while braking. To avoid over-leaning, riders should reduce this outwards torque a bit ahead of reducing braking effort. Rcgldr (talk) 08:46, 21 September 2022 (UTC)